smooth

education typically tells a lot more about one's class background and life experiences than ability to think critically.
most of my students at the JC level were non-traditional students: parents, 30+, retraining for a different economic sector. I never saw a correlation between their education aspirations and the knowledge they had along with their critical thinking skills vs. the UC students I taught. In fact, except for a few handfuls from 300 person class sizes, it's been my experience that the 18-19 year old students were pretty atrocious as students on nearly everything except having enough money to afford attending a UC. That fact brought a whole host of problems, actually that made it more difficult to train them.

I can't convince you otherwise, but I think it's ridiculous to blame a working mother for her daughter's behavior. Especially when Todd was supposed to be the homemaker and the daughter is months away from being an adult. evangelical households experience the same kinds of issues non-evangelical households experience. might as well hold the fact that she works against her because in case you didn't know, a woman being the head of household instead of the husband is not scriptural if you take that stuff seriously. I prefer to think that people tend to balance their religious beliefs against their secular responsibilities and realities. and as far as I can tell, there is no policy she holds regarding unmarried, pregnant teenagers, other than the fact that she doesn't believe they should be allowed to kill babies. and her family subscribes to that, as far as I can tell. I'm sure her daughter's unplanned pregnancy was a stressful family event, but love and support of the person going through that is a Christian value in the general sense. I don't see her advocating on a policy level anything that contradicts that position.

Obama had a better grasp of international and national affairs for a lot of reasons. Some of them are the fact he had nearly two years to prepare for the public scrutiny of his grasp. Another point is that he was the lead of the ticket, whereas she wasn't. It's one thing to point out that she might have become president, it's another to realize she didn't have that in her head two years ago like McCain, Obama, and Biden did.

It seems like a large portion of your points are attributing things to her that she didn't have much choice in.
We'll see if she addresses her shortcomings in the next few years.

But saying that someone's educational achievements are less than another's because of the institution they attended is not realistic.
most of the people I got to know on a personal level from junior colleges were facing much greater barriers to greatness than anyone at a university that had very little to do with their ability or desire to do great things...and many have gone on to do great things, to top it all off. In fact, the very basis of community colleges was to provide minorities access to higher education and also to make an institution that participates at the community level in ways the universities can't or won't.
And blaming someone for the decisions their family members make when they aren't involved is not realistic, either.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Frosstbyte

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about schools. I think there's a major difference between institutions and what it takes to get into and succeed at them. I don't see someone who wanders around a bunch of JCs as someone who values her education and values being informed about the world. I think she backed this up by being largely clueless about this country and other countries. I think she backed it up when she couldn't name a single publication that she read on a regular basis as a source of news. I think she backed this up by sticking to the precise talking points she was fed until the last week or so when she went off script and talked about who knows what. At no point did she project or attempt to be an image of educated and informed, and I don't have any reason to believe that she is.

As for her family, here's my point: Sarah Palin represents and self-identifies as a member of our society whose primary political agenda is to regulate how people live their lives. She's interested in abortion, gay marriage, religion in education, "Family Values" and all the rest. If she were in a position of power, she would regulate those things to impose her values on everyone else, because she really truly believes that they're the only way to live. My problem is that she failed, obviously and spectacularly to impart (as opposed to impose) those values to her own children in her own family. If she lacks the wherewithal as a parent to impart values to her own children, I think it seriously undermines her claims about who is she and where she's coming from and what she stands for.

__________________
I'm making a note here-
Huge success.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

smooth

so in your world attending community college is an educational failure and unwed, teenage pregnancy is a moral failure

how these relate to being a victim of a prank call is beyond me...care to elaborate on that?

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Frosstbyte

No, no and this thread has long shifted to her general qualifications and intelligence as opposed to specifically why she was duped. Threads naturally evolve as they go on. That's why it's conversation.

The problem is that I'm talking specifically about her, and you're generalizing my points to everything. HER educational history compared to the other candidates is lacking. Her interest in world affairs and her knowledge of American politics and the American political system is lacking. I attribute that to her comparative lack of a cohesive educational experience. It doesn't mean that everyone who goes to JC knows nothing or doesn't care about her education or doesn't get a good one. It means that, looking at her higher education, it wasn't a priority for her and the impact of that choice shows.

Additionally, it shows that she couldn't even transfer a core value of her faith to her daughter and then she poses herself as a "family values" candidate, which is kind of antithetical to having your own household with a knocked up teenager. It shows everything that is messed up and dangerous about abstinence based education. I don't think that it's absolutely wrong to be a pregnant teenager, though I think it's probably not something that many people "choose" and more end up "making do with." I think it reflects poorly on your legitimacy as a candidate on her platform to have a pregnant teenage daughter.

__________________
I'm making a note here-
Huge success.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

filtherton

Not to really defend Sarah Palin all that vigorously, but...

I don't think that one can hold her accountable for the actions of her daughter, or hold the actions of her daughter up as some sort of example of the shortcomings of abstinence only education. I put myself in situations where I could have knocked someone up when I was a teenager, and I got comprehensive sex ed at multiple grade levels. They only way abstinence only education could have played a role in Bristol Palin getting knocked up would if it had resulted in her being either unaware that babies come from sex (seems unlikely) or unaware of the existence of prophylactics (also seems unlikely).

And I'm not sure that the ability for a person to transfer core values to their offspring is a reasonable yardstick for the evaluation of that person's personal integrity. My dad is a pastor, and a man of pretty substantial integrity. I'm essentially an atheist. My dad's inability to transfer his belief in god to me has nothing to do with his ability as a parent, or his integrity as a Christian.

smooth

How do you claim something is a variable for one person, but not the rest? If it's a variable, it will operate at a generalized level as well as the specific. If it doesn't, then it's not a variable.
If the basis of her lack of political knowledge is a function of the class of education she participated in, then that same deficiency will hold true for others taking the same class of education, as well.
If the basis of her lack of political knowledge is not a function of the class of education she participated in, then it drops out as a causal variable and shouldn't be included as a factor at all.

You are claiming you are only specifically referring to her and not other people attending JCs. Earlier, however, you posted that you saw a distinct difference in the types of people who attend the various classes of education. In fact, you specifically mentioned that you didn't see "someone" who "wanders around a bunch of JCs as someone who values her education." Your logic led you to use those generalized claims as you were developing your argument. That's not something I did, that's a function of the fact your premises lead you to conclude what you wrote.

Let's operate as if wandering around junior colleges is a variable in knowledge of foreign affairs. I'm at a loss as to how that operates. It looks to me that Palin was interested in pursuing a career in media. Very few students take classes outside their field of interest. The fact that Obama and Biden focused on political science tracks says more about their interest than their intelligence. The fact that they have a broader knowledge about foreign affairs says more about the information they were exposed to than about where the exposure came from.

Another problem with your analysis is that you are trying to apply what you think in general to fill in the holes about what you don't know specifically.
For example, without knowing the interaction between the junior colleges Palin attended and the four year university she ultimately graduated from with a degree, you are just speculating as to the reasons she moved across a number of colleges before finalizing her education trajectory.

We don't know in this conversation whether some of her courses were unavailable at the colleges she was attending. Or whether some operate as satellite colleges to the university. Many universities off-load their students to junior colleges because classrooms don't have enough seats. Sometimes a course is full and it's better to drive 20 miles to the next open classroom than it is to wait a semester/quarter for the course to open. Some courses are just flat out not even offered at other colleges or universities, even though they may be a requirement of the degree. If she sat down with an education advisor and they plotted out a plan to obtain a degree she wanted, then that would explain what you are considering a haphazard movement across campuses.

She could also have moved around due to her husband or her own job requirements.
The fact of the matter is that none of these speak anything about her ability or desire to expand her knowledge about what she was interested in--media.
If you want to start using foreign affairs exposure in college as a basis for distinguishing between candidates, you're going to end up with a very short list. Well, I think you've pretty much named them: Obama and Biden. I'm not sure why you include McCain's Naval Academy as an authorized agent of quality education in foreign affairs, other than it seems to me that you think it's a reputable institution. Applying that general premise to McCain's education without knowing the classes he took or how he performed in them seems about as non-sensical as faulting Palin for her educational decisions.

If you conclude she's dumb because of how she behaved, I don't fault you for that. But trying to root around in her past and using her educational background as fodder to validate your conclusions is not logically sound.


While I agree with you that a teenage pregnant daughter demonstrates the ineffectiveness of abstinence only education as a means to prevent pregnancy (assuming that's the policy the household adhered to, which I also agree is a reasonable assumption if Palin is to be consistent), I disagree it says anything about any parents' moral or value system or ability to impart one's values to the rest of their family members.

Seventeen year old children are capable of and desire to make their own choices in life. Values are guiding lights, but they do not prevent children or adults from making mistakes that conflict with one's value system. If you meant that you disagreed with abstinence only policies, and that her daughter's pregnancy is one example of it not working, then I agree with you. But that's not what your posts were claiming. You made a moral and character assessment based off her daughter's pregnancy, and I think that's not supported by the evidence you've posted.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

aceventura3

I am not an elitist. I care more about character than "meaningful higher education" (whatever that means).

On a continuum with 10 being a knowledge of every aspect of world politics and issues, no person on earth scores a perfect 10. I think most politicians in Congress have a grasp of the world outside of the US generally based on second hand information and would score on average a 5 or 6. I think a person like Rice or Albright would score about an 8 or 9 in my opinion. I would rate Bidden 7, Obama 6, McCain 8, and Palin 4. With additional exposure to international issues, I see Palin going up to about a 7 pretty quick. I think the average American would rate a 1 or 2. International issues is a Palin weakness, but everyone has weaknesses. Prior to Obama running he was probably about a 4 also.

You did not specify the "standard" and how she is imposing it. The standard of unconditional love and support of your child even after the child makes a poor decision is a pretty high standard and she is clearly living up to it and is setting a fine example to her daughter, but I don't see how she is trying to force that on you.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

asaris

Just a quick note; it's not clear that the 'Africa' anecdote is false, only that the person who claimed to be the anonymous source doesn't exist.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

aceventura3

Wow, it seems that you want that Africa thing to be true oh so badly.

Palin is so dumb she was captain of her HS basketball team (what does that say about her teammates).
Palin is so dumb she placed second in a state beauty pageant (what does that say about the others)
Palin is so dumb that she did graduate from an accredited University (what does that say about college degrees).
Palin is so dumb, she was elected mayor of her home town (what does that say about her home town).
Palin is so dumb, she was appointed to her states Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (what does that say about those who selected her for the post)
Palin is so dumb she initiates an investigation on a member of the Commision who resigns (what does that say about that person)
Palin is so dumb she files an ethic complaint against the Republican Attorney General, who resigns (what does that say about him)
Palin is so dumb, she was elected the first female governor of the state of Alaska (what does that say about Alaskans)
Palin is so dumb, she has an over 80% approval rating as governor. ( what does that say about Alaskans)
Palin is so dumb, she goes through the McCain campaigns vetting process for VP (what does that say about the vetters and McCain)
Palin is so dumb, she is the first female Republican VP candidate (what does that say about women)

Why don't you folks give this "she is so dumb..." thing a rest and move on.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Poppinjay

Fun! I'll play!

Palin is so dumb, she responds to a bipartisan report finding her guilty of ethical lapses by saying it exhonerates her!

McCain is so dumb he thought a cute chick would pull in the Hillary voters!

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

roachboy

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Bill O'Rights

Wow!!
That’s just about as an elitist a statement as I’ve ever heard.

Guess what? I went to a community college. I guess that wasn’t…”meaningful”. Darn.

Translation:
Well…er…um…ok, it wasn’t true. But, it could’ve been and that’s just as bad.

Ok…

So, Obama could’ve been a Muslim terrorist sympathizer. Oh, sure, he’s not. But, he could’ve been and that’s just as bad.

Where’s the logic in that?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Poppinjay

When did elite start to mean bad things?

I want the elite in charge. I want the elite fighting for me. I'll keep them at my house. Everybody else can have the non-elites.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Frosstbyte

Yes, I am an elitist when it comes to education. No, I don't have any problem with community college or people who go to it. I know some smart people who went to community college, and have been very successful, and that's fine for them. You, personally, may have taken that opportunity and done a lot with it, Bill. That doesn't change the fact that there are differences in opportunity between random community college A and Columbia University. That doesn't change the fact that someone who bounced around for years because she was busy doing beauty pageants going to five different colleges probably doesn't value her education very much. Nor does it change the fact that at no point in the entire campaign did she should any shred or glimmer of knowledge that one might glean from getting an education and caring about it.

Is it elitist for an employer to favor someone who graduated from Columbia and Harvard Law compared to someone who graduated from the University of Idaho with credits from 3 other community colleges? I think that's good sense, particularly when their conduct verifies the superficial guess you'd get about the difference between people with degrees from those schools.

And furthermore, when we're picking the president and the vice president, for the zillionth time I ask, why is elitism bad? We're not talking about your fishing buddy or your plumber. We're talking about, arguably, the most power executives on the planet. I want the very best possible. I'm not sure in some grand sense I'm thrilled with Biden and Obama, but Palin pandered to the lowest common denominator in every aspect of her conduct. I don't want that. I don't like that Bush did that, either.

As for the Africa statement, I think you're taking it too literally. If someone said to me "BoR didn't know that Africa was a continent" I would say, "That's odd, because he seems like a smart guy. I wonder how he missed knowing such a crucial and obvious fact." When I (and a lot of other people) heard that Palin didn't know it was a continent, not a country, we said, "Yeah, that's about what we've come to expect."

__________________
I'm making a note here-
Huge success.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

Bill O'Rights

Hmmm...your point, Poppinjay, is well taken. Perhaps a better term to have used was...snob. Elitist, perhaps, is being used in place of snobbish, because it sounds better.
You're absolutely correct. And I was actually in the SAC Elite Guard, when I was serving in the United States Air Force. Perhaps I should know better (must be that Community College education of mine ) I too want the elite to be at the forefront. But the true elite do not look down their noses at the rest. The true elite have risen to the top by their own desire to do so, not because they happened to be able to get into the "right" school and subsequently look down on those who, for whatever reason, did not. Those people are not, by your definition, what I would consider..."elite". They are...elitist. Placed at the top of the heap...in their own mind.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

dc_dux

I dont think the issue is having an ivy league pedigree, but rather knowing enough about public policy to sound knowledgeable and sensible on important national issues and she failed that test miserably.

In any case, the Republican Governors Association announced the organization's new leadership today at the conclusion of their meeting in Miami:
Was it palin envy for the manner in which she attempted to dominate (or suck the air out of) the meeting in order to start rehabilitating her image or a recognition by her colleagues that she is an empty suit with folksy "hockey mom" appeal but little demonstrated depth of knowledge of national policy issues?

Probably a little of both. They certainly knocked her down a peg.

The fact remains that there are few within the party hierarchy either in DC or the state houses that have anything positive to say about Palin.

__________________
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. "
~ H.L. Mencken

asaris

Ace -- I don't care if the Africa anecdote is true or false. I've pretty much made up my mind about Palin either way. But there's no reason to think it's false from the news story that was posted. And most of that list? Says nothing about her intelligence. I have a hard time believing that even you think that winning a beauty pageant means she's smart.

Is she smart? I don't know. I'd bet a great deal of money she's not as smart as Obama, but I think Obama is very, very smart. I tend to think that she's not very smart and not very intellectually curious. Why do I say that? Well, every single thing we know about her says she's not very smart. Even Ace, in his little list of reasons why she's smart, could only come up with "Was selected to be on an oil and gas commission in Alaska". As evidence she's not that smart, consider every interview she's had since she was nominated as V-P, her college record, her choice of husband, how she's raised her children, her behavior while V-P candidate and since the end of the election, and any number of other things. None of these things is in itself a perfect indicator of being not-so-bright. But all of them together make a pretty compelling case.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

aceventura3

I believe intelligence can be measured in many ways, outside of normal I.Q. tests and the typical validation from institutions. The world is filled with women of exceptional beauty who don't win or come in second in beauty pageants. So, obviously it takes something more than beauty. You can dismiss "it", but I don't. Whatever "it" is I don't pass judgment on it, but I recognize it as an accomplishment worthy of acknowledgment because most people can't do it. The irony to me is that liberals complain about conservatives being intolerant of differences, but based on my experience on TFP, liberals are far less tolerant and and come across as having a very hostile attitude against people who don't drink the liberal viewpoint Kool-Aid. Bottom line is Palin has a proven track record of being a winner.

Just as a side note on "smarts". The "smartest" business people from the best business schools drove companies like Lehman, Merril, Countrywide, Wachovia, Fannie Mae, etc, etc, into nothing from being pillars in the financial community. Perhaps if some of the Ms. America candidates were in charge of these companies they would have survived this financial crisis without being bailed out or purchased.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

smooth

lol, she fucking lost dude...that's the bottom line

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

aceventura3

Dude, did I ever say she won the pageant? Given that she is an average looking woman coming in second is even good for Alaska. If you don't see the pattern of success does not mean it is not there.
-----Added 17/11/2008 at 03 : 57 : 39-----
Also, the other-side of this is the possibility in a competition for power - those within a hierarchy may not be accepting of seeing someone leap-frog over them in that hierarchy. A meeting of Governors in 2008 will have very little meaning three years from now. Huckabee is still my first choice in 2012, but Palin is second at this point. It is not going to serve the Republican Party's interests to throw either one under the bus at this time.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Frosstbyte

The best thing the Republican party could do in the sense of rallying the non-NeoCon-Christian Right group of conservatives (who win them elections) is throw Palin under a bus. Those were the people she scared off in droves. It'd reestablish a lot of credibility that the party is returning to what it's supposed to stand for (smaller government, state's rights, non-interference in personal lives) if it were clear that she was not going to be around.