djtestudo

That implies a specific set of general beliefs, and likely a set of specific beliefs that they share.

That isn't the same thing as the color of one's skin. It's more like someone saying they voted for Obama because he was the "most Democrat".

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

timalkin

96% of black voters picked Obama.

3% of black voters picked McCain.

Compare these results to the 2004 presidential election when Kerry only received 88% of the black vote. More blacks voted in this election than in any previos election. Is Obama any more or less liberal than Kerry? Probably not enough to make a difference in the numbers.

I never said that ALL black voters chose Obama because he was black, but take a look at what's being said and done by a large number of blacks:

-Excessive celebration. When was the last time we've seen such huge celebrations in the streets by blacks? When O.J. was found not guilty. I don't recall this behavior when Clinton was elected or reelected in the 90's.

-Statements that they voted for Obama because he was black.
-Statements concerning how great it is to have a black president.
-Statements about how they never thought they'd see a black president in their lifetime.

The list goes on and on. Why is it that a white person saying that they voted for McCain because he is white a racist remark, but not when a black person says they voted for Obama because he is black? It's the same thing either way. There is a distinct double standard in this country when it comes to racism. A white person who claims to have voted for Obama because he is black is also a racist.

When will racism ever stop if we continue to make decisions based on race? Racism will never cease if we keep encouraging it. But then again, many people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have a lot to lose if racism really disappears.

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

dc_dux

There are some who will vote for the candidate with whom they are most comfortable....be it race, religion, age....

But what was more ignorant in timalkin's observation about Black voters for Obama was to characterize it as "racist" suggesting no understanding of the term.

The same lack of understanding of the term "racism" expressed above.

__________________
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. "
~ H.L. Mencken

shakran

No, but Kerry couldn't get a kid excited about candy. They're two different men, and not just for the superficial reasons you cite.

djtestudo

I agree about comfort, but I still think they are two different levels. I don't think there is a problem with voting for someone because they have the same values as you do, but I do when the reason turns to basic race.

I'm not going to go through the whole, "I'm white, but I'm not racist because I have black friends, etc." (I don't have black friends, but I also don't have any friends ), but I do think timalkin has a point. If the main reason a black person voted for or against a candidate, white or black or any other racial or ethnic background, is because of skin color, that is very questionable in my opinion. Same as if I voted for or against McCain or Obama because of their race.

In this election, because of the specifically historic nature of Obama's victory when it comes to race, I'm not overly upset. However, if it becomes a trend that a candidate gets the overwhelming majority of votes from others of their race because of their race, that would be, and should be to all, very disconcerting to the way our country is heading.

Honestly, I think the bigger issue is having almost the entire black population in most elections voting Democrat, but that is something completely different.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Amaras

Best thing about this discussion is that when the first Latino or Asian person gets the nod, hopefully most of the ignorance will
have been cleaned up.
Anybody got numbers on % of Catholics who voted for Kennedy vs. Nixon way back when?
Timalkin, I want you to understand something quite simple, people vote for the person they think will give them the best shake, the best deal, represent their interests the best. After Bush (and the Republican Parties) treatment of the poorer districts in New Orleans, which were predominately black, do you think some, including thoughtful whites, might not have thought that blacks are poorly served by a Republican President? I might not like Kanye West's opinions very much, and I hate it even more when he's right about George Bush not caring about black people.
Why do I care? Well, up by your treeline you may not realize this, but Northern European (read white) culture's power is on the decline. I think if we here can treat EVERYONE with equality, they MIGHT not put our children on trial for the horrors our great grandparents committed in the name of "purity".

About this "excessive celebration", please provide concrete examples. Otherwise you are talking out of your ass.


By the way, a lot of us (myself included) should read and learn from what the ladies are saying about us over in their forum. Guys, remember, read, don't post.
TFP women don't like politics?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

rmarshall

You know, I drove to the polling station a couple of days ago to vote for Obama and nobody was there! Boy, did I feel silly. Apparently, Canadians can't vote in American elections!

Seriously though, how do they know the races or religions or whatever of who votes for who? The ballots are the same as here, right? X marks the spot. There's no 20 questions on the ballot. It's all statistics from polls, which are no better than wild ass guesses.

Anyway, what was interesting to me was how the various ethnic groups got off there couches and went door to door to raise money and make sure all the Obama voters got to the polls. And I read that he said, "we can't lose if we outnumber them!". If he can run such a successful campaign and motivate people to do that to get him elected, he can motivate them to help him solve their problems. "Yes we can".

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

shakran

Exit polls. those who consent to them answer who they voted for and then a bunch of questions about their life. (do you own a gun, how old are you, etc)

rmarshall

Thanks. I don't think we have them here. Or maybe I was in too big of a hurry to get the hell out. I think you're kind of encouraged to get the hell out. They can't be very accurate. Only those with nothing better to do would hang about filling out surveys for free. Now, maybe if they were giving out hotdogs and drinks....

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

abaya

Cheers, man.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

pig

These comments about race remind me of something:

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

abaya

I haven't seen one of those since high school physics... nice one, Pig.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Amaras

What is it? Forgive my ignorance. I took High School physics and don't remember it
(or much of High School, for that matter).
Abaya, No, thank you!

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

abaya

It's a bell jar... the machine underneath it sucks out all the air from inside the jar, creating a vacuum inside. It makes for some damn cool demonstrations. (I was way too much of a science nerd in high school. )

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Amaras

Abaya,
The bell jar! I've read about it. We used some sort of domed contraption, kinda like a
cake cover, with a vacuum hose, plastic seals, clamps, etc....
It's funny, but I never studied (like, AT ALL) in H.S. but I tended to do very well in
Physics, math, and biology. Chemistry, not so much.....

To everyone else, sorry about the threadjack, not intended. Please return to our reularly
scheduled programming.....

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

mrklixx

They suck?

__________________
This is not a link - Do not click here

I hate animated avatars.

rmarshall

empty-headed
-----Added 8/11/2008 at 03 : 43 : 06-----
Well, that thread will likely get moved over here anyway. I prefer to read stuff like "The general wetness question".

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

lotsofmagnets

yes, was quite a good read. at least now i´m convinced that the females of tfp are no better than the males, just it seems guys are more willing to express their opinions, opening them up to debate even if they are (of course in the minds of others) ill-informed. there was a clear demonstration of why there are more men than women in politics. nice to see sexism is dead and buried.
all my humble opinion, of course
but thatnks to abaya for starting a good thread which didn´t seem to end too well...

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Amaras

For me, the clearest point was that the women of TFP have opinions, clear and individual, and OUR way of debating is preventing us from learning what they think.
Not a method for the best possible chance at evolving, is it? I WANT TO hear different opinions. I sure as hell don't think I'm always right, does anyone, really?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

lotsofmagnets

what is "our way."? i particularly loved comments like "the us vs. them mentality" which is exactly what was propagated in that thread. somewhat hypocritical in my view. there is nothing stopping ANYONE from expressing their opinion in any of the forums here (except ladies´ lounge but we´ll overlook that ) except if people think their opinion is not worthy of being heard. as the saying goes: "speak up or forever hold your peace." i really don´t care if the person who is making the point is male or female. i care about the point and will argue the point yet somehow there is some sort of "us vs them" attitude. usually that sort of mindset will lead to that sort of reality. perhaps it has already. as far as i can see there is no sign on any of the threads stating that women are not wlecome.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Amaras

Try reading their thread. I wouldn't think there are very many atavistic men on this forum.
While there may be no "Not welcome" signs posted, perhaps there are signs we aren't grasping. I know for a fact I can argue like hell with you, name call and all the rest, and then go hang out after or whatever without leftover resentment. I know that, I think you know that. I'm just not sure most women get that (ladies, please don't flame me for that, just gently show me the error of my ways).
My point is that evidently there is a gap here. It exists. I want to know why, and I would hope there is a remedy (I'm just a tad idealistic, perhaps).

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

lotsofmagnets

i´m not sure i get your 1st sentence. i´m not going to assume you mean you think i haven´t read their thread. my basic point is that it seems like there is a request to stifle debate so that a few extra people can join in for a fun time agreeing with each other. politics will always be divisive. in case it hasn´t been noticed i myself am a rare contributor to political debates and this is because many times i feel that others are able to express my sentiments better than me but if i have a point and there is an empty space it is my responsibility to express myself. this has nothing to do with the sexes but if people want it to then i reserve the right to disagree wholeheartedly.

but to go back to your point: i´m not a fan of the name calling stüff and i know most ppl here know it´s conterproductive. it was intersting that it was bought up in the ladies´thread rather than the ladies taking it up with the people in question.

the "irony" of the situation has just struck me that we´re forced to discuss this in a tangent in one of the political forums whereas the ladies get their own space to discuss this. i think it´s appropriate that if this discussion is continued it be away from this thread but since there really is no space where it can be discussed (by males) i think it should be terminated. if you feel you have any other points please pm me instead and i will do likewise.

back to teh regular programming.

edit: sorry, my intention is not to cut you off

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?