President Elect Barack Obama - Page 5 - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

filtherton · 11-10-2008, 07:42 AM

I like how they mention the Dan Quayle thing twice.

Amaras · 11-10-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I like how they mention the Dan Quayle thing twice.

Sort a Dan Quayle thing to do, wasn't it

?

onesnowyowl · 11-10-2008, 12:58 PM

Not to disrupt the current flow of conversation, but I really enjoyed looking at this photostream on Flickr that offers a behind-the-scenes look of the Obama family on Election Night: Election Night 11-04-08 - a set on Flickr

abaya · 11-10-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Not to disrupt the current flow of conversation, but I really enjoyed looking at this photostream on Flickr that offers a behind-the-scenes look of the Obama family on Election Night: Election Night 11-04-08 - a set on Flickr

Thank you for sharing these, Snowy. They are all beautiful photos, but there is one of Obama hugging his daughter Malia close, on stage, and it is just a gorgeous moment. Whatever his legacy as president ends up being (though I'm quite willing to bet that it will be a great one), I have no doubt in my mind that this, right here, is a good man who loves his family dearly. And I don't take that for granted in the lives of our presidents, or anyone, really. How refreshing it is to see this.

lotsofmagnets · 11-10-2008, 02:55 PM

the photoset was a good find. mindyou try going through all the sets - there seems to be eleventy billion up there but it is nice to see the human side to someone who will be running the world. odd to see him and his wife holding hands yet sitting on the opposite side of the couch...

abaya · 11-10-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotsofmagnets

odd to see him and his wife holding hands yet sitting on the opposite side of the couch...

Eh, are you sure that wasn't his mother-in-law? I remember one photo of him holding hands with her, across the couch...

onesnowyowl · 11-10-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Eh, are you sure that wasn't his mother-in-law? I remember one photo of him holding hands with her, across the couch...

Yes, I do believe the photo lotsofmagnets is referring to is Obama holding his MIL's hand.

I'm glad others appreciated it; I think the photos offer a rare glimpse of the Obamas as a family in a more private setting, and I liked being able to see the family's reaction to the news. I noticed they chose to watch NBC!

timalkin · 11-10-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Whenever it is, I don't think you, as a white person, can answer that question.

You're right. White people are so inherently different that they cannot make an objective decision about race.

We should let Jesse Jackson decide, a man who would call racism if a white dog refused to sniff a black dog's anus. He has a vested interest in seeing equality, right? I'm sure he's waiting for that day so he can finally retire and enjoy his millions.

smooth · 11-10-2008, 04:01 PM

it's more like: the group that historically fucked over another group of people isn't qualified to tell the group who's been fucked over that they've been made up to. Try it with your girlfriend sometime, piss her off and then announce that you're tired of apologizing and you've done enough. see how far that gets you....

abaya · 11-10-2008, 04:02 PM

timalkin, you occur to me as being a particularly angry individual.

Amaras · 11-10-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

it's more like: the group that historically fucked over another group of people isn't qualified to tell the group who's been fucked over that they've been made up to. Try it with your girlfriend sometime, piss her off and then announce that you're tired of apologizing and you've done enough. see how far that gets you....

timalkin · 11-10-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

timalkin, you occur to me as being a particularly angry individual.

Because I'm not a liberal apologist?

I believe in absolute equality of all races, all of the time. I don't understand why that is such a hard pill to swallow. I have never owned slaves, and I don't know anybody who owns slaves or ever has. Slavery sucked, but it happened a long time ago and not to anybody living today.

When I see a black person, I don't see a color. I see a human being that bleeds red, just like I do. I'm forced to see a black person's color because a lot of people make it a huge issue.

It's a never-ending cycle. If you don't like giving a racial group certain privileges, you're labeled as a racist. If you like giving a racial group certain privileges, you're encouraging more and more importance to be placed on a genetic trait that means nothing.

I don't care that our President-elect is black, just like I don't care that he's Christian, has two kids, or likes to play basketball. All that should matter is whether he can do the job.

asaris · 11-10-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

I believe in absolute equality of all races, all of the time.

It doesn't matter to you that this is false? That minorities are manifestly less well off in the United States than white males? It's all well and good to claim that you believe in equality; it's less good if you believe unequal groups are already equal, such that we have no obligation to help them.

roachboy · 11-10-2008, 04:46 PM

but history's a bitch, ain't it?
you are a historical product who operates in an ideological environment that enables you, as one of your historically-specific features, to pretend to yourself that history does not matter because, as you so daintily put it:

Quote:

I have never owned slaves, and I don't know anybody who owns slaves or ever has. Slavery sucked, but it happened a long time ago and not to anybody living today.

but you can't make history go away simply by hiding from it----whether consciously or through ignorance, it hardly matters---it stays where it is despite your wish that you could find a level of being so superficial as to not have it weigh on you--and because it doesn't go away, history becomes yet another persecuting Other, and the Victim is not the folk who were objectively fucked over--and not just by slavery, but by reconstruction, by an entire system and/or culture built on the basis of reconstruction, which was only gradually undermined across the 1950s and 1960s---and which persists today in more dimensions that you would care to think about---rather *you* become the ultimate victim of history, the poor petit bourgeois who wants nothing more than to exist in a tiny sliver of reality and be left alone, but who just can't do it because, no matter how hard he (typically he) tries, the past just won't go away.

it is amazing to me that this shallower than shallow view of the world ever got any traction, and i look forward to the day when it finally returns to the jurassic park of reactionary ideologies that is the vast American Backwater whence it came.

dc_dux · 11-10-2008, 04:54 PM

timalkin... if you believe that racism is a minority group celebrating the extraordinary achievement of one of its own is racism....you dont dont understand racism.

If you believe that giving discriminated against minority groups "certain privileges" when it fact what is attempted to be given and achieved is equal access....you dont understand racism.

timalkin · 11-10-2008, 04:54 PM

Gee, I guess it's mighty nice of white folks to lend a helping hand, because of course a black person couldn't succeed without it.

What would black people do without white people there to help them out? Good thing whites allowed President-elect Obama to run for the job. He better not disappoint them, or else white people won't allow any other non-whites to run in the future.

dc_dux · 11-10-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

I don't care that our President-elect is black, just like I don't care that he's Christian, has two kids, or likes to play basketball. All that should matter is whether he can do the job.

Do you care that, that despite recent achievements, blacks are still discriminated against in employment, education, housing, health care.......for no other reason than the color of their skin?

abaya · 11-10-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

Because I'm not a liberal apologist?

No, because you actually come across sounding extraordinarily angry. Your tone and attitude come through quite clearly in the language you use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

but history's a bitch, ain't it?
you are a historical product who operates in an ideological environment that enables you, as one of your historically-specific features, to pretend to yourself that history does not matter because, as you so daintily put it:

but you can't make history go away simply by hiding from it----whether consciously or through ignorance, it hardly matters---it stays where it is despite your wish that you could find a level of being so superficial as to not have it weigh on you--and because it doesn't go away, history becomes yet another persecuting Other, and the Victim is not the folk who were objectively fucked over--and not just by slavery, but by reconstruction, by an entire system and/or culture built on the basis of reconstruction, which was only gradually undermined across the 1950s and 1960s---and which persists today in more dimensions that you would care to think about---rather *you* become the ultimate victim of history, the poor petit bourgeois who wants nothing more than to exist in a tiny sliver of reality and be left alone, but who just can't do it because, no matter how hard he (typically he) tries, the past just won't go away.

it is amazing to me that this shallower than shallow view of the world ever got any traction, and i look forward to the day when it finally returns to the jurassic park of reactionary ideologies that is the vast American Backwater whence it came.

rb, excellent post. One of your best, in my opinion.

timalkin · 11-10-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

timalkin... if you believe that racism is a minority group celebrating the extraordinary achievement of one of its own is racism....you dont dont understand racism.

If you believe that giving discriminated against minority groups "certain privileges" when it fact what is attempted to be given and achieved is equal access....you dont understand racism.

You don't seem to think that a black racist can exist.

From dictionary.com:

rac⋅ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

My definition seems to have support. White people giving special privileges to black people is a type of racism. It implies that black people are so inherently inferior that they can't produce significant achievements on their own.

dc_dux · 11-10-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

My definition seems to have support. White people giving special privileges to black people is a type of racism. It implies that black people are so inherently inferior that they can't produce significant achievements on their own.

Sadly, we live in different Americas....if you cant see that your numbers 1 and 2 still exist in our white dominated society...both at an in institutional level and individual level.

Correcting those inequalities is not a "special privilege to black people."

jewels · 11-10-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

White people giving special privileges to black people is a type of racism. It implies that black people are so inherently inferior that they can't produce significant achievements on their own.

Black people had been rendered inferior many years ago. I'm sure you're aware of the history. Unfortunately, the day the slaves were emancipated, they're weren't admitted into the best colleges, nor given any other human rights. These had to be earned, unlike the rights of the white man, and the black man is still working to catch up.

You may know this, intellectually, but you don't seem to want to believe that true equality and racism is still a long, long way off because so many people want to believe what you want to believe.

Hell, look at the idiot in office now. How hard did he work to get where he is? Obama? You can bet your ass he's been working his at least twice as hard in order to prove himself and get to the same place.

filtherton · 11-10-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

You don't seem to think that a black racist can exist.

From dictionary.com:

rac⋅ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

My definition seems to have support. White people giving special privileges to black people is a type of racism. It implies that black people are so inherently inferior that they can't produce significant achievements on their own.

If one interprets 1 strictly enough, even acknowledging the existence of racism is racist (which I guess explains timakin's attitude in this thread).

roachboy · 11-10-2008, 05:49 PM

this is a better dictionary definition, from the oed:

Quote:

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occas. in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities. Cf. RACIALISM n.

1933 Times 12 Sept. 12 They..denounce the quadruple crime which is being prepared in the name of racism and intolerance. 1936 L. DENNIS Coming Amer. Fascism ix. 109 If..it be assumed that one of our values should be a type of racism which excludes certain races from citizenship, then the plan of execution should provide for the annihilation, deportation, or sterilization of the excluded races. If..as I devoutly hope will be the case, the scheme of values will include that of national citizenship in which race will be no qualifying or disqualifying condition, then [etc.]. 1940 R. BENEDICT Race: Science & Politics i. 7 Racism is an ism to which everyone in the world today is exposed. 1952 Theology 55 283 The idolatry of our time{em}its setting up of nationalism, racism, vulgar materialism. 1960 New Left Rev. Jan.-Feb. 21/2 George Rogers saw fit to kow-tow to the incipient racism of his electorate by including a line about getting rid of ‘undesirable elements’. 1971 Ceylon Daily News (Colombo) 18 Sept. 8/5 Mr. Seneviratne is welcome to his ideal of inter-racial marriages as panacea for Racism. 1974 M. FIDO R. Kipling 50/2 In The Story of Muhammad Din he wrote one of the most economical and bitter attacks on British racism ever penned. 1976 Cleveland (Ohio) Plain Dealer 4 Mar. A2/4 The Vatican radio said,..‘Racism might have different faces but it will always be reprehensible.’ 1986 Marxism Today Sept. 43/4 The term ‘racism’ refers to the belief that there are significant distinctions (whether moral, intellectual or cultural) between races. 2000 A. MORETON-ROBINSON Talkin' up to White Woman (2006) vi. 173 It is racism which is the primary form of oppression Indigenous women experience at the hands of white women and white men. 2003 Chatham (Ontario) Daily News (Nexis) 11 Jan., The French Canadians were treated as bad as the blacks throughout the U.S. at the time... His experiences of racism against French Canadians..was [sic] apparent.

there are so many crappy dictionaries.
they are not all the same.

11-10-2008, 12:58 PM	#163 (permalink)
onesnowyowl feeling evil Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Corvallis, Oregon	Not to disrupt the current flow of conversation, but I really enjoyed looking at this photostream on Flickr that offers a behind-the-scenes look of the Obama family on Election Night: Election Night 11-04-08 - a set on Flickr __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

11-10-2008, 02:55 PM	#165 (permalink)
lotsofmagnets Upright Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: reykjavík, iceland	the photoset was a good find. mindyou try going through all the sets - there seems to be eleventy billion up there but it is nice to see the human side to someone who will be running the world. odd to see him and his wife holding hands yet sitting on the opposite side of the couch... __________________ mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

11-10-2008, 04:01 PM	#169 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Right here	it's more like: the group that historically fucked over another group of people isn't qualified to tell the group who's been fucked over that they've been made up to. Try it with your girlfriend sometime, piss her off and then announce that you're tired of apologizing and you've done enough. see how far that gets you.... __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

11-10-2008, 04:02 PM	#170 (permalink)
abaya Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Iceland	timalkin, you occur to me as being a particularly angry individual. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

11-10-2008, 04:54 PM	#175 (permalink)
dc_dux Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Washington DC	timalkin... if you believe that racism is a minority group celebrating the extraordinary achievement of one of its own is racism....you dont dont understand racism. If you believe that giving discriminated against minority groups "certain privileges" when it fact what is attempted to be given and achieved is equal access....you dont understand racism. __________________ "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. " ~ H.L. Mencken

11-10-2008, 07:42 AM	#161 (permalink)
filtherton A poor man's version of a rich man. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I like how they mention the Dan Quayle thing twice.

11-10-2008, 04:54 PM	#176 (permalink)
timalkin Psycho Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: watching from the treeline	Gee, I guess it's mighty nice of white folks to lend a helping hand, because of course a black person couldn't succeed without it. What would black people do without white people there to help them out? Good thing whites allowed President-elect Obama to run for the job. He better not disappoint them, or else white people won't allow any other non-whites to run in the future. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix