matthew330

Seroiusly it ends now.
/end threadjack, I'm done. where the hell is spellcheck.

timalkin

We can't have an honest discussion about race in this country when white people who don't see a need to continue propping minorities up are labeled as either stupid, racist, or both.

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roachboy

it's not so easy.

what you think or derive follows from the information and the rules you impose on yourself.
if you work with a problematic framework, even a intelligent, not racist person can come to bizarre-o conclusions.
the discussion, were there to be one, would be about the information that is included or excluded and the rules for moving through that information.
and i'm pretty sure that were we to have a discussion about this, you wouldn't be able to defend how your positions are built, timalkin.

so it's just convenient--you know---to pretend instead that it follows from some superificial rejection of a conservative viewpoint and to complain about it.

if you want to have an actual discussion, then fine--let's do it.
otherwise, i have reality tv shows to watch.

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it make you sick.

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pan6467

My point is, I heard all the news articles that stated 33% of Democratic white males were going to vote for McCain just because of race and how wrong and prejudicial that is. {Didn't happen, but that was placed out there.}

Yet, no one can dare point out that there were blacks that voted for Obama based solely on race. Isn't that prejudicial and just as wrong as the above McCain scenario that was played out to IMHO guilt some people into voting for Obama. Making them believe that perhaps they were voting for McCain simply because he was white and that would be wrong so.....

Yet, I never heard ANYONE say, 95% of all blacks are voting for Obama, a certain percentage doing so simply because he is black {when in actuality he is half black, half white}.

Why not vote based on policy and let the one who has the best policy in the eyes of the people win? Why was this election all about race and not policy and the future?

Racism in ANY form is wrong, and I saw a lot of reverse racism this election. Moreso, than the stereotypical white hate black.

But, it's racist, will be called racist and hateful to bring this out and talk about it.....

So how can anyone expect true change and understanding of sides and working to build a better future together when BOTH sides keep racism and hate alive and well.

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Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. You're just left with yourself all the time, whatever you do anyway. You've got to get down to your own God in your own temple. It's all down to you, mate.
I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong.
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Daniel_

The interesting thing about racial perception, is that Obama is viewed as "black" when he is what used to be called in Britain "half-caste", "mulatto", or "bi-racial" depending on which decade (century?) you're looking at.

Our perception of race is so skewed that we comment and notice the black side of his heritage, but often overlook the white side.

Presumably it is because the genes from his father's side make a much more obvious presence in his appearance than those of his mother's side.

It's the same with Lewis Hamilton - the stories often focus on the black side of his family tree, because the first thing we notice isn't "there's Hamilton, you can see from the shape of his face he's got white genes" but "there's Hamilton, you can see from his brown skin that he's got black genes".

Racism will exist until what colour someone is is no more worthy of comment than whether they prefer butter or margarine, or if they like briefs or boxers.

It will take many, many years (if it ever happens).

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
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Charlatan

I honestly don't believe that racism will ever *completely* go away. I think we are just wired to see difference.

The best we can hope for is the ability to know it when we see it (or feel it) and act appropriately.

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Derwood

voting AGAINST someone due to their race = racist
voting FOR someone due to their race = not really racist

Daniel_

The problem is that many of the people who voted FOR Obama because of his colour, might also be said to have voted AGAINST McCain because of his colour - is that racist?

I say "could be said" because until you have two black candidates, you can't take race out of the decision making process.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

pan6467

If I am black and I voted for Obama not for his policies but by race...... how is that not racist?

__________________
Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it.
Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. You're just left with yourself all the time, whatever you do anyway. You've got to get down to your own God in your own temple. It's all down to you, mate.
I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong.
JOHN LENNON (1940-1980)

Derwood

because it's positive and not negative.

dc_dux

It could be suggested that it is racist to assume that X percentatge of blacks voted for Obama for his race rather than his policies if you dont have the data to back it up.
-----Added 17/11/2008 at 12 : 44 : 41-----
Obama saw an increased percentage in most demographics.....men, women, hispanics, asians, white, republicans, indepdendents, young, college educated.....

voter demographics - 1988-2008

yet, you single out the increased percentage of black voters and suggest that it was "racists" for blacks to vote for him at a higher percentage (than previous elections) as a result of few anectdotes that it was race based, rather than any hard data.

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smooth

that's because they are using some ridiculous definition of racism that is so far removed from what it actually is that it's nearly nonsensical...which is what the point is. Render the conversation so far from reality that discussion about things that make us squirm is shut down.

Racism is about power and subjugation. It is not about simply seeing differences or even acting upon those supposed differences.
When people like roachboy and myself talk about racism we are not talking about individual actions...as in a black guy and a white guy see each other across the bar and one hates against the other.

Racism in this country is less about individual acts than it is about institutions that carry over the residuals from racist public policies that were themselves set in place by people operating within a racist context. A short history of how this works: blacks weren't people, it was illegal to teach them how to fucking read and write for fucks sake, then we "freed" them, then they could vote, but hey guess what, they couldn't fucking read and write so I wonder how effective their votes were...

and then of course, while they were milling around looking for their poll booths, aside from the shit like taxes that they couldn't pay, tests they couldn't possibly pass, and polling stations they couldn't find because the pollsters would move them around on purpose, but if they happened to get around town but so much as looked up at a white woman and found themselves hanging from a noose later that night.

while all this is going on, blacks used all their savings and bought nice little pink houses next to the white slave owners. oh wait a damn minute, they didn't have any savings. I wonder what they did...well let's just say that they built nice little communities where all the wealthiest wanted to live so their homes are worth a mint now...oh wait, wtf. who actually believes that? no, they live in communities that no one wants to live in because local tax dollars based off their home values are what pay for police, fire dept., SCHOOLS. So even the hardest working individual working his ass off to make sure his son gets up at the asscrack of dawn and drops him off at the school door but when he walks in there's a teacher who either is there because he or she can't work somewhere else or the rare individual who could work anywhere he or she wants but chooses to teach in Compton with no pencils, paper, or textbooks, or even tables because they want to change the world.

MEANWHILE, over in my neck of the woods, even the 3rd graders have computers.

So I wonder what happens when you compare the test scores between the two regions?
well it's this amazing thing that the white kids are just scoring the hell out of these SATs...of course, my school had professors come from the universities and most of them took college courses right there before lunch. and had parents paid for pre-SAT prep classes, and had parents who went to college so they actually knew about it.

meanwhile, the black kid over here actually knows calculus, in fact he knows it better than the kid who just finished his pre-sat tests, because he was staying out of trouble in the public library and started teaching himself some serious math shit. but right about the time he was going to graduate his dad was pulled over because he was DWB just a little too late at night and had some crack cocaine in his jacket pocket. so now he's doing 20 years in prison and unless this smart black kid drops out of high school and starts working at Taco Bell or goes into the Marines his mom can't pay the rent and his sister will not get her diabetes medicine.

so let's try and resolve this by offering federal funding to schools. hmm, let's see...oh wait, we already pay a shitload of money to teachers. they're just out to game the system and live off the dole. we better make sure that schools are actually teaching students shit before we cut them a check. let's make a test! now kiddos, if you want your textbooks and desks to sit in, then pass this test. WTF? what's with these dummies, they can't even improve their test scores year after year. I mean, the tests are so easy:
I can't believe that these inner city kids don't know that a bow is the front of a boat! how fucking dumb are they????
knew it was a bad idea to provide federal funds...we're just throwing money at a problem! teacher's unions, omfg, they are so greedy and they can't even teach worth a damn.


of course no one is responsible for this shit because it happened in the 1800's and no one is alive anymore...oh wait just a goddamn minute. That shit like killing blacks for the crime of being black happened 40 years ago. It still sometimes happens as a matter of fact unless you think the KKK is a hunting club now. And guess what, every single day these kinds of things prevent good people from succeeding. and I just sketched a brief overview of the education system. I didn't even type out the whole story because most people have the larger shit right about segregation due to the laws (de jure) even if they aren't aware of de facto segregation (segregation that happens as a matter of fact). I only mentioned racist crime policies in passing. There's a lot more to be said. maybe some musician will fill in the blanks on what happened to otherwise successful black musicians and why they aren't filthy rich...

institutional racism
look it up...it ain't going away...it's not even known to be a problem by most people (unless you happen to be affected by it or exposed to it somehow).

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Amaras

I see examples of the difference in the frames of reference EVERY day in my own house.
Smooth, well (albeit really long) said.

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filtherton

I was just going to point out that racism and racial discrimination are two different things, but I see that smooth has already done so in a more satisfyingly passionate way than I would have.

pig

smooth smooth...real smooth.

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powerclown

Is it racist for American companies to insist that their outsourced customer service phone reps in Bangalore India americanize their own names, for example, when Mr. Akaljeet Sarminder CSR, must identify himself to his American customer as "Allan? Why can't they just use their own names? It seems undignified.

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dworkin31

If people think racism is dead, read local newspapers throughout the deep south, oklahoma, Tulsa, in particular. Racism is alive and well. The KKK is alive and well. Just read some of their comments to articles about obama. I live in LA so that when i read those comments, it is downright scary. It 's not the KKK or white supremicist groups that are at fault but the Southern Christian Poverty Law Center. It's unbelievable.

Those whites feel that they have been marginalized now (and they are correct). They are downright scared. They have a simple agenda - fear, which is based upon ignorance and intolerance.

Demographically, if you look at those who voted for obama, it's those with higher education. Do a breakdown on Politico or REal Clear Politics and you can see for yourself.

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filtherton

I don't think it's racism. I think that in a society like the US, where a sizable portion of the population are economic nationalists (even if their actions aren't consistent with economic nationalism), they're just trying to avoid the appearance of having outsourced their labor.

powerclown

"Avoid the appearance of outsourcing the labor" but what about the foreign accent over the phone lines? Are you saying that outsourcing is embarrassing to companies? That could be true, perhaps foreign CSRs are trying to cover for the errors of their masters, or perhaps they are just being friendly to english speaking people. Imagine someday having to help out a Chinaman overseas over the phone and having to fake your name because it doesn't sound Chinese enough.

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Derwood

the DirecTV or AT&T customer service rep can call themselves Joe Smith all day....it's pretty clear they're in India

Dixy

Leadership is key, me thinks. I live in the "Motherland of Racism" and I cannot base this on any scientific data, just observations.

When Nelson Mandela became president, we had a lot of racism, he somehow, not with laws, but making sure he understands and supports all the races and cultures, and by gestures of tolerance, lead the whole nation to less racism, from all sides (black, white, brown and yellow-yes we have them all).

We, for instance have eleven official languages and he managed to make one nation of us. I think he must be one of the biggest leaders ever.

We still have a lot of problems, but let us hope we can get a leader that can help us again. Our election is next year.

mixedmedia

I just want to jump in here and thank smooth for his last post. Very well said. It's always encouraging to see people who give a shit enough to give real consideration to the reality of inequality in our country. There are so many who will not see. Refuse to see. Especially when it comes to admitting that the reality of institutional racism today is directly related to our racist past. Good work.

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dc_dux

Add my thanks to smooth as well...for explaining it in a way that exposes the stark reality of racism in just one aspect of American life.

Speaking as one who was born when "whites only" signs still existed, we have made enormous progress just in our lifetime. But how do we, as a nation, continue to move forward and progress even further towards equal access for all, particularly in such troubled economic times when many feel so personally insecure or uncertain about their future? Do we ignore those who are unwilling or unable to accept that what smooth described, and that is replicated in other areas beyond education, still exists and yet who hold their own more convenient definition of racism?

My hope is that sometime during the course of his first term, Obama takes the issue on in a way that is educational and not confrontational and that promotes a national dialogue that examines the issue from all sides.

His remarkable speech during the campaign should not be forgotten. I hope some will take the time to listen to it again..


...37 minutes is not too much to ask.

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"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. "
~ H.L. Mencken

abaya