San Francisco 1st-graders attend teacher's lesbian wedding in 'teachable moment' - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Infinite_Loser · 10-13-2008, 03:25 PM

Didn't see this anywhere else. If it's already been talked about, feel free to mock me for being late.

San Francisco 1st-graders attend teacher's lesbian wedding in 'teachable moment'

Quote:

By Jill Tucker | San Francisco Chronicle
3:56 AM CDT, October 11, 2008

SAN FRANCISCO—A group of San Francisco first graders took an unusual field trip to City Hall on Friday to toss rose petals at their just-married lesbian teacher—putting the public school children at the center of a fierce election battle over the fate of same-sex marriage.

The 18 Creative Arts Charter School students took a public bus and walked a block at noon to toss rose petals and blow bubbles on their just-married teacher Erin Carder and her wife Kerri McCoy, giggling and squealing as they mobbed their teacher with hugs.

Mayor Gavin Newsom, a friend of a friend, officiated.

A parent came up with the idea for the field trip -- a surprise for the teacher on her wedding day.

"She's such a dedicated teacher," said the school's interim director Liz Jaroflow.

But there was a question of justifying the field trip academically. Jaroflow decided she could.

"It really is what we call a teachable moment," Jaroflow said, noting the historic significance of same-sex marriage and related civil rights issues. "I think I'm well within the parameters."

Nonetheless, the excursion offers Proposition 8 proponents fresh ammunition for their efforts to outlaw gay marriage in California, offering a real-life incident that echoes their recent television and radio ads.

"It's just utterly unreasonable that a public school field trip would be to a same-sex wedding," said Chip White, press secretary for the Yes on 8 campaign. "This is overt indoctrination of children who are too young to have an understanding of its purpose."

The trip illustrates the message promoted by the campaign in recent days, namely that unless Prop. 8 passes on Nov. 4, children will learn about gay marriage in school.

"It shows that not only can it happen, but it has already happened," White said.

California Education Code permits school districts to offer comprehensive sex education, but if they do, they have to "teach respect for marriage and committed relationships."

Parents can excuse their child from all or part of the instruction.

On Friday, McCoy and Carder, both in white, held hands on Newsom's office balcony overlooking the rotunda and recited their vows.

"With this ring, I thee WED!" Carder said, shouting the last word for emphasis.

After traditional photos, the two walked out City Hall's main doors where the students were lined up down the steps with bags of pink rose petals and bottles of bubbles hanging from their necks. McCoy, a conferences services coordinator, was in on the surprise and beamed as the children swarmed around Carder.

The two said they have participated in the campaign against Proposition 8 and planned to travel around San Francisco Friday afternoon in a motorized trolley car with a "Just Married" and "Vote No on 8" banners.

The two met on a dance floor two years ago.

"This is one girl I can honestly say deserves happiness and it came in the form of Kerri," said Carder's friend Dani Starelli.

Creative Arts administrators and parents acknowledged that the field trip might be controversial, but they didn't see the big deal. Same-sex marriage is legal, they noted.

"How many days in school are they going to remember?" asked parent Mark Lipsett. "This is a day they'll definitely remember."

Carder's students said they were happy to see their new teacher married.

"She's a really nice teacher. She's the best," said 6-year-old Chava Novogrodsky-Godt, wearing a "No on 8" button on her shirt. "I want her to have a good wedding."

Chava's mothers said they are getting married in two weeks.

The students' parents are planning to make a video with the children describing what marriage is to them.

Marriage, said 6-year-old Nolan Alexander on Friday, is "people falling in love."

It means, he added, "You stay with someone the rest of your life."

As is the case with all field trips, parents had to give their permission and could choose to opt out of the trip. Two families did. Those children spent the duration of the 90-minute field trip back at school with another first grade class, the interim director said.

"As far as I'm concerned, it's not controversial for me," Jaroflow said. "It's certainly an issue I would be willing to put my job on the line for."

Now, I find this to be beyond idiotic. It's almost like they're trying to prove the people who believe that gays are trying to force some kind of agenda upon their children right.

This, in my opinion, goes far beyond the normal reaches of a public school system. Even if you wanted to argue it was for purely 'educational' reasons, it seems odd to me that you would have a bunch of impressionable first graders participate in the ceremony instead of just observing. I don't know of any heterosexual teacher which took his/her class to his/her wedding as a field trip, which leads me to believe this was nothing more than a ploy. However, the political ploy aside, what I don't get is how the school district willingly allowed something like this. Sure, the parents who didn't want their children to go didn't have to go, but couldn't one use the same argument for why prayer should be instituted in school (Those who don't like it can sit out and not participate)?

Imho, someone should be fired (But I doubt anyone will be).

highthief · 10-13-2008, 03:31 PM

Don't see a problem with it. It's a pretty unique sort of field trip. Maybe better than going to the zoo for the zillionth time.

And given that only two families opted out, most people in that school system seem to feel the same way.

Infinite_Loser · 10-13-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

And given that only two families opted out, most people in that school system seem to feel the same way.

So are you saying that public schools, in this case a charter school, should be able to do whatever they want so long as the majority in a specific district goes along with it? That's an awfully dangerous slope you tread.

onesnowyowl · 10-13-2008, 03:35 PM

I don't have a problem with it. They're part of a charter school--meaning that they're probably in a small classroom and have a close relationship with their teacher. Friendly relationships between teacher/student are often much closer in the primary grades. I've known plenty of heterosexual elementary school teachers who have invited students to their wedding--why should it be any different for homosexual school teachers? They took the public bus, so no school resources were used. The only thing they missed was instruction time, but there are plenty of more asinine things that cause students to miss instruction time.

This is really not a big deal, and I agree with the suggestion that it is a teachable moment.

And Infinite_Loser, I hope you are aware that charter schools do not operate under the same rules and conditions that true public schools do.

Infinite_Loser · 10-13-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

And Infinite_Loser, I hope you are aware that charter schools do not operate under the same rules and conditions that true public schools do.

First, those teachers are also in the wrong and, second, yes I realize that a charter school isn't as mandated as a 'true' public school, but that does not justify taking a bunch of first-graders to a lesbian wedding and having them actively participate anymore than it justifies taking a bunch of first-graders to a mosque, a synagogue and a church and having them participate to teach them about religious tolerance.

Being a charter school doesn't give you free reign to do whatever is popular. What happened here was inappropriate and, if that's what they want to do, then they shouldn't get public funding to do so.

filtherton · 10-13-2008, 04:07 PM

I don't see a problem with it. Who cares if these kids see two ladies get married?

Cynosure · 10-13-2008, 04:14 PM

I assume the school got permission slips from the parents/guardians of each and every student who went on this field trip, just like any school does for any off-campus field trip. And if the parents gave permission, then I really see no problem with this.

(Although, yes, I do think that the person(s) who conducted this had at least some socio-political motives. Then again, few if any persons are purely altruistic.)

highthief · 10-13-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

So are you saying that public schools, in this case a charter school, should be able to do whatever they want so long as the majority in a specific district goes along with it? That's an awfully dangerous slope you tread.

I have no idea what a "charter school" is, however, I have no problem with this situation.

So long as what a school wants to do on a field trip isn't illegal and no one is being forced to do anything they don't want to, I see no issues. Go to the zoo (although some consider zoos immoral and wrong), go sailing (though it might be a little dangerous), check out an art gallery (though some of the art - like half the stuff a guy called Micahaelangelo created - might be called obscene by some), go to the library (though it contains many books full of dangerous and risque ideas), or collect sea shells on the sea shore.

To be frank, I don't see it as being anyone's concern beyond the people in that community.

Frosstbyte · 10-13-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Being a charter school doesn't give you free reign to do whatever is popular. What happened here was inappropriate and, if that's what they want to do, then they shouldn't get public funding to do so.

I think if you took a closer look around in the public charter school world, you'd find a lot of things going on that are quite a bit more damaging than this.

Public charters are a weird world, and not one that's very regulated. I think it's a stretch to call it particularly educational, but I also don't think it's particularly harmful. You're still pulling the "if they see gays, they'll become gay" card, and it's just as meaningless as it ever was. I've seen plenty of kindergarten and first grade kids who are already acting as gay as anyone could be without being fully cognizant of what they're doing.

Publicity stunt, sure; waste of time, maybe; worth any disciplinary action, please.

percy · 10-13-2008, 04:30 PM

I think involving any student in out of school private matters is a touchy subject. I would add especially kids this young who may or may not fully understand the significants of the event unfolding before them.

If it were my son or daughter, I wouldn't let them attend, not because I don't support gay rights or the lifestyle, just because I think it is inappropriate for that age group, and the fallout from other(older) kids who may taunt those kids after the fact. Seems to me a lesson that can wait a few years.

Not to derail the thread but, I have to wonder if the consenting parents would be so liberal in their decision if 2 male teachers were getting married.

westothemax · 10-13-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by percy

I think involving any student in out of school private matters is a touchy subject. I would add especially kids this young who may or may not fully understand the significants of the event unfolding before them.

If it were my son or daughter, I wouldn't let them attend, not because I don't support gay rights or the lifestyle, just because I think it is inappropriate for that age group, and the fallout from other(older) kids who may taunt those kids after the fact. Seems to me a lesson that can wait a few years.

Not to derail the thread but, I have to wonder if the consenting parents would be so liberal in their decision if 2 male teachers were getting married.

I agree that this is a touchy subject to involve these young students in, but the article didn't say that this was mandatory for all students. I've never heard of students attending their teachers' weddings, but I guess it happens. And I'm sure there were parents who didn't want their children to attend this particular wedding, and I'm sure the kids who did go had the permission of their parents. So in this case, I don't see the problem, and actually now that I think about it, I wouldn't have a problem with letting my kids go to their teacher's wedding, gay or straight. And I really doubt it'd be any different if it were two male teachers getting married instead.

The thing that bothers me about this is Gavin Newsom conveniently being a "friend of a friend" of the teacher and officiating the marriage. I can't stand this guy. While there are numerous problems continuing in San Francisco, like the high rate of homelessness and the increasing number of homicides, all Newsom really seems to be focused on is gay marriage. Don't get me wrong, this is an important issue, just saying he should try to actually fix this city instead of making himself look good for his inevitable bid for higher office.

Willravel · 10-13-2008, 05:25 PM

The parents gave them permission, and it was not required. Blame the parents if you have a problem with it.

I find them to be moral people that are capable of demonstrating that consensual love is something to be celebrated.

remy1492 · 10-13-2008, 07:03 PM

My problem is I'd rather see them studying languages and math like most Europeans do at 7-8yrs old rather than watching a "memorable moment" in some sort of sexual emancipation. Great idea for some, does nothing for the real world.

BlueEyes · 10-13-2008, 07:18 PM

It took me a minute to make a decision on how I felt about this. The conclusion that I've come to is that children attending a same-sex wedding is not the issue here.

I don't think that students should be let out of school as an entire class to attend a private event hosted by the teacher. I think that is poor judgement on the teachers part. Not only is she taking away classroom time from these students, but she's messing with the plans of other teachers that interact with these students during the day.

I'm not sure that I think any teacher should include their students in private matters. But, if a teacher truly feels close enough to his/her students to invite them to such event it should not take away from their school day. I'm sure it would not have been difficult to plan this wedding on a weekend.

Infinite_Loser · 10-13-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

I have no idea what a "charter school" is, however, I have no problem with this situation.

So long as what a school wants to do on a field trip isn't illegal and no one is being forced to do anything they don't want to, I see no issues. Go to the zoo (although some consider zoos immoral and wrong), go sailing (though it might be a little dangerous), check out an art gallery (though some of the art - like half the stuff a guy called Micahaelangelo created - might be called obscene by some), go to the library (though it contains many books full of dangerous and risque ideas), or collect sea shells on the sea shore.

To be frank, I don't see it as being anyone's concern beyond the people in that community.

Okay. Then, as I said above, following your logic, why not reinstate prayer in school and let those who don't wish to do pray to leave the room? It's the same principle here. By attempting to label it a 'non-issue', you're ignoring the fundamental problem with taking a bunch of 1st graders at a public school to a lesbian wedding (That they're 6 to 7 year olds who are not only being used as a political ploy but are being taken out of class to attend a private function). Just because a bunch of parents signed off on it doesn't make it right nor a non-issue. I'm pretty sure I can get a bunch of parents to sign off on just about anything. That doesn't mean it should occur and/or happen.

In fact, you can't even tell me why this was a good thing or something which was needed in the community or even why it doesn't warrant some kind of punishment. You can be damn sure if a teacher tried to take his or her first-grade class to a place of worship as a 'learning experience' that the outcry would be tremendous.

highthief · 10-13-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Okay. Then, as I said above, following your logic, why not reinstate prayer in school and let those who don't wish to do pray to leave the room? It's the same principle here. By attempting to label it a 'non-issue', you're ignoring the fundamental problem with taking a bunch of 1st graders at a public school to a lesbian wedding (That they're 6 to 7 year olds who are not only being used as a political ploy but are being taken out of class to attend a private function). Just because a bunch of parents signed off on it doesn't make it right nor a non-issue. I'm pretty sure I can get a bunch of parents to sign off on just about anything. That doesn't mean it should occur and/or happen.

In fact, you can't even tell me why this was a good thing or something which was needed in the community or even why it doesn't warrant some kind of punishment. You can be damn sure if a teacher tried to take his or her first-grade class to a place of worship as a 'learning experience' that the outcry would be tremendous.

OK, but you should address why it is any of your business - it's happening in a school that I presume has nothing to do with you.

I do think kids should be exposed to a variety of things in life and I'd have no problem with kids going for a field trip to a church, mosque, synagogue, etc. In fact, in a secular school system, I think it's a good idea.

I don't think something that occurs daily (i.e. prayer - or daily lesbian weddings for that matter) would be a good thing to institute. There is a substantial difference between showing kids that something exists and making it part of their daily lives. A bit like the difference between going on vacation and living somewhere.

percy · 10-13-2008, 08:04 PM

I reread the article again and haven't changed my mind that I disagree with what happened. But particularly now because of this:

"She's a really nice teacher. She's the best," said 6-year-old Chava Novogrodsky-Godt, wearing a "No on 8" button on her shirt. "I want her to have a good wedding."

I think making 6 years olds (extreme minors)wear propoganda pins shows a complete lack of civility amongst the adults. I find it hard to believe those kids were there to surprise their teacher. Those kids were puppets for a political agenda. Shame on the parents.

Willravel · 10-13-2008, 08:13 PM

If children can be forced to go to church and wear religious paraphernalia, they can do the same thing with politics. Personally, I'm not comfortable with either, but I'd be even more uncomfortable with an inequality.

westothemax · 10-13-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

OK, but you should address why it is any of your business - it's happening in a school that I presume has nothing to do with you.

I do think kids should be exposed to a variety of things in life and I'd have no problem with kids going for a field trip to a church, mosque, synagogue, etc. In fact, in a secular school system, I think it's a good idea.

I don't think something that occurs daily (i.e. prayer - or daily lesbian weddings for that matter) would be a good thing to institute. There is a substantial difference between showing kids that something exists and making it part of their daily lives. A bit like the difference between going on vacation and living somewhere.

QFT

Its not like the students schedule this semester is filled with gay weddings and no math or science. I think the thing that irks people is it was a same sex wedding. My kid goes to school in the San Francisco Unified School District and went on a field trip to a jellybean factory last year (4th grade). No one considered this irresponsibly taking away classroom time from the kids. At least with a same sex marriage, it is something that is socially and culturally relevant (especially in San Francisco). For those who brought it up, I also don't see any problem with my kids visiting a religious establishment, and my kid did that last year too (Mission Dolores and Mission Santa Cruz).

pig · 10-13-2008, 09:33 PM

percy: i think that kid may have been wearing the button because apparently her parents are also same sex wimmins, and they are apparently getting married in 2 weeks.

to the topic - as for whether i think it's right or wrong, it's tough to say based on one article. in a vacuum, i'd have to say that i'd draw the line between a one day affair and a constant daily indoctrination. a same sex wedding would seem to be potentially relevant, particulary given san fran's local politics. you could potentially make it into an interesting discussion topic, i would think. i think i'd feel the same about kids going to a religious ceremony or a secular event, but it all depends on context. this thing sounds like the kids thought it was kind of neat, and maybe they were able to discuss the concept with their families before and after. maybe not a bad thing.

could be you could handle creationism like this. have a field trip where the kids go to a local church and are exposed to a creationist viewpoint with their science class, but the creationism isn't necessarily a part of their curriculum...

edit: the majority of the post wasn't directly specifically at percy - editted to make that clear.

The Faba · 10-14-2008, 12:51 AM

My problem with this...

I've noticed a disturbing trend in America as of the last 10 years, public schools are becoming education centers for liberal dogma. Not to say that liberal dogma is a bad thing, but I thought schools were supposed to be a place of learning scientific facts - not propeganda. I personally had many classroom sessions in 6th through 12th grade turned into hour long bitch-fests at the conservative side of the government. Not the most productive use of French or Civics Class. (Ironically, Civics is supposed to teach how the government is run, not one's opinions on the government...) This is a big problem as the children being fed the propeganda are, in fact, children! They haven't developed their own opinions or their own logic yet - they just walk along blindly following what their instructors feed them. (This is actually happening in my nephews class... he's 8) And if someone does speak out about this method of indoctrinating students - for example, my complaint to the school administration about my french class being used as an outlet for opinions on American politics, the student in question is treated as if he or she is openly rebelling against the system. Sending my High School transcripts, for example, took four tries - and cost me a shot at going to West Point... (They 'accidentally' filed the transcripts to be picked up by me, despite having marked on two seperate requests to be sent directly - as I was instructed by the admissions edpartment, to send them out.)

Of course, this indoctrination is justified because the teachers have their 'free speech' and should be allowed to do it. (This is occuring in New York as I write this) The only problem is that this free speach is infringing on the children and brainwashing them, not allowing them to form their own opinions. The only reason that I strictly blame the liberals in the national school system is that, from my viewpoint, I haven't seen any conservatives in a teaching atmosphere. Even if there were - the liberal presence is much stronger and controls not only the teacher's union, but the school administration and the rest of anything I've left out - which means that anyone who goes against this norm is overshadowed and lost in the deafening propeganda being spewed forth.

I'm reminded of the time directly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks when we were directed to write a report, for English class, on how America caused these strikes on our soil. I spoke out and asked what we were supposed to do if we 'didn't want to blindly follow liberal propeganda and didn't beleive we had done anything to justify the callous muder of a few thousand innocent lives' (Not my specific words or the best way to handle it, but I was tired of this kind of activity occfuring in schools) I was instructed that if I wanted to act this way I should leave the classroom and go to the office - so I shut up. To this day I wish I had sat there and rebuked her. I ended up not writing the paper, then noticed at the end of the year that the paper had been weighted more than twice as much as the other assignments of equal length - which caused my to fail the class by aaround 2%.

So yes, I'm against force feeding children political viewpoints of any kind in schools. I'm against this because of the brainwashing aspect, because of the abuse of power that will NECESSARILY come with it. (As in 'What the hell does this kid know, they're only 13 - what a cheeky prick, I'll fail them because they don't follow what I say - It may not be as blatant or as concious as this, but it will be present) and because of the one sidedness of it, not to mention any other bad thing that will come from it. This is a simple plan to promote a political stance by brainwashing some kids, nothing more - and it sickens me.

Welcome to the corrupt mess of vile putrescance that is our nations school system... available wherever a future voter may be.

filtherton · 10-14-2008, 07:16 AM

It could be argued that all viewpoints are political so that even if you weren't having liberal dogma shoved down your throat, you were still have political dogma shoved down your throat.

I think that good schools teach children how to learn and how to think critically, and that part of being able to think critically is being exposed to thing that you are unconventional.

10-13-2008, 03:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada	Don't see a problem with it. It's a pretty unique sort of field trip. Maybe better than going to the zoo for the zillionth time. And given that only two families opted out, most people in that school system seem to feel the same way. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

10-13-2008, 03:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
onesnowyowl feeling evil Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Corvallis, Oregon	I don't have a problem with it. They're part of a charter school--meaning that they're probably in a small classroom and have a close relationship with their teacher. Friendly relationships between teacher/student are often much closer in the primary grades. I've known plenty of heterosexual elementary school teachers who have invited students to their wedding--why should it be any different for homosexual school teachers? They took the public bus, so no school resources were used. The only thing they missed was instruction time, but there are plenty of more asinine things that cause students to miss instruction time. This is really not a big deal, and I agree with the suggestion that it is a teachable moment. And Infinite_Loser, I hope you are aware that charter schools do not operate under the same rules and conditions that true public schools do. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

10-13-2008, 04:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
percy Insane Join Date: Feb 2006	I think involving any student in out of school private matters is a touchy subject. I would add especially kids this young who may or may not fully understand the significants of the event unfolding before them. If it were my son or daughter, I wouldn't let them attend, not because I don't support gay rights or the lifestyle, just because I think it is inappropriate for that age group, and the fallout from other(older) kids who may taunt those kids after the fact. Seems to me a lesson that can wait a few years. Not to derail the thread but, I have to wonder if the consenting parents would be so liberal in their decision if 2 male teachers were getting married. Last edited by percy; 10-13-2008 at 04:32 PM.

10-13-2008, 07:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
BlueEyes Upright Join Date: Nov 2007	It took me a minute to make a decision on how I felt about this. The conclusion that I've come to is that children attending a same-sex wedding is not the issue here. I don't think that students should be let out of school as an entire class to attend a private event hosted by the teacher. I think that is poor judgement on the teachers part. Not only is she taking away classroom time from these students, but she's messing with the plans of other teachers that interact with these students during the day. I'm not sure that I think any teacher should include their students in private matters. But, if a teacher truly feels close enough to his/her students to invite them to such event it should not take away from their school day. I'm sure it would not have been difficult to plan this wedding on a weekend. __________________ The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think. Horace Walpole

10-13-2008, 09:33 PM	#20 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Locash	percy: i think that kid may have been wearing the button because apparently her parents are also same sex wimmins, and they are apparently getting married in 2 weeks. to the topic - as for whether i think it's right or wrong, it's tough to say based on one article. in a vacuum, i'd have to say that i'd draw the line between a one day affair and a constant daily indoctrination. a same sex wedding would seem to be potentially relevant, particulary given san fran's local politics. you could potentially make it into an interesting discussion topic, i would think. i think i'd feel the same about kids going to a religious ceremony or a secular event, but it all depends on context. this thing sounds like the kids thought it was kind of neat, and maybe they were able to discuss the concept with their families before and after. maybe not a bad thing. could be you could handle creationism like this. have a field trip where the kids go to a local church and are exposed to a creationist viewpoint with their science class, but the creationism isn't necessarily a part of their curriculum... edit: the majority of the post wasn't directly specifically at percy - editted to make that clear. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

10-13-2008, 04:07 PM	#6 (permalink)
filtherton A poor man's version of a rich man. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I don't see a problem with it. Who cares if these kids see two ladies get married?

10-13-2008, 04:14 PM	#7 (permalink)
Cynosure Crazy Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: the center of the multiverse	I assume the school got permission slips from the parents/guardians of each and every student who went on this field trip, just like any school does for any off-campus field trip. And if the parents gave permission, then I really see no problem with this. (Although, yes, I do think that the person(s) who conducted this had at least some socio-political motives. Then again, few if any persons are purely altruistic.)

10-13-2008, 05:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	The parents gave them permission, and it was not required. Blame the parents if you have a problem with it. I find them to be moral people that are capable of demonstrating that consensual love is something to be celebrated.

10-13-2008, 07:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
remy1492 Upright Join Date: Sep 2007	My problem is I'd rather see them studying languages and math like most Europeans do at 7-8yrs old rather than watching a "memorable moment" in some sort of sexual emancipation. Great idea for some, does nothing for the real world.

10-13-2008, 08:04 PM	#17 (permalink)
percy Insane Join Date: Feb 2006	I reread the article again and haven't changed my mind that I disagree with what happened. But particularly now because of this: *"She's a really nice teacher. She's the best," said 6-year-old Chava Novogrodsky-Godt, wearing a "No on 8" button on her shirt. "I want her to have a good wedding."* I think making 6 years olds (extreme minors)wear propoganda pins shows a complete lack of civility amongst the adults. I find it hard to believe those kids were there to surprise their teacher. Those kids were puppets for a political agenda. Shame on the parents.

10-13-2008, 08:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	If children can be forced to go to church and wear religious paraphernalia, they can do the same thing with politics. Personally, I'm not comfortable with either, but I'd be even more uncomfortable with an inequality.

10-14-2008, 12:51 AM	#21 (permalink)
The Faba Crazy Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Manhattan, KS	My problem with this... I've noticed a disturbing trend in America as of the last 10 years, public schools are becoming education centers for liberal dogma. Not to say that liberal dogma is a bad thing, but I thought schools were supposed to be a place of learning scientific facts - not propeganda. I personally had many classroom sessions in 6th through 12th grade turned into hour long bitch-fests at the conservative side of the government. Not the most productive use of French or Civics Class. (Ironically, Civics is supposed to teach how the government is run, not one's opinions on the government...) This is a big problem as the children being fed the propeganda are, in fact, children! They haven't developed their own opinions or their own logic yet - they just walk along blindly following what their instructors feed them. (This is actually happening in my nephews class... he's 8) And if someone does speak out about this method of indoctrinating students - for example, my complaint to the school administration about my french class being used as an outlet for opinions on American politics, the student in question is treated as if he or she is openly rebelling against the system. Sending my High School transcripts, for example, took four tries - and cost me a shot at going to West Point... (They 'accidentally' filed the transcripts to be picked up by me, despite having marked on two seperate requests to be sent directly - as I was instructed by the admissions edpartment, to send them out.) Of course, this indoctrination is justified because the teachers have their 'free speech' and should be allowed to do it. (This is occuring in New York as I write this) The only problem is that this free speach is infringing on the children and brainwashing them, not allowing them to form their own opinions. The only reason that I strictly blame the liberals in the national school system is that, from my viewpoint, I haven't seen any conservatives in a teaching atmosphere. Even if there were - the liberal presence is much stronger and controls not only the teacher's union, but the school administration and the rest of anything I've left out - which means that anyone who goes against this norm is overshadowed and lost in the deafening propeganda being spewed forth. I'm reminded of the time directly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks when we were directed to write a report, for English class, on how America caused these strikes on our soil. I spoke out and asked what we were supposed to do if we 'didn't want to blindly follow liberal propeganda and didn't beleive we had done anything to justify the callous muder of a few thousand innocent lives' (Not my specific words or the best way to handle it, but I was tired of this kind of activity occfuring in schools) I was instructed that if I wanted to act this way I should leave the classroom and go to the office - so I shut up. To this day I wish I had sat there and rebuked her. I ended up not writing the paper, then noticed at the end of the year that the paper had been weighted more than twice as much as the other assignments of equal length - which caused my to fail the class by aaround 2%. So yes, I'm against force feeding children political viewpoints of any kind in schools. I'm against this because of the brainwashing aspect, because of the abuse of power that will NECESSARILY come with it. (As in 'What the hell does this kid know, they're only 13 - what a cheeky prick, I'll fail them because they don't follow what I say - It may not be as blatant or as concious as this, but it will be present) and because of the one sidedness of it, not to mention any other bad thing that will come from it. This is a simple plan to promote a political stance by brainwashing some kids, nothing more - and it sickens me. Welcome to the corrupt mess of vile putrescance that is our nations school system... available wherever a future voter may be. __________________ Sod the Proles... and fuck pandas!

10-14-2008, 07:16 AM	#22 (permalink)
filtherton A poor man's version of a rich man. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In the land of ice and snow.	It could be argued that all viewpoints are political so that even if you weren't having liberal dogma shoved down your throat, you were still have political dogma shoved down your throat. I think that good schools teach children how to learn and how to think critically, and that part of being able to think critically is being exposed to thing that you are unconventional.