abaya

Alright, Little_Tippler had a fantastic idea in the other ladies' thread, about starting some ladies'-only politics in our very own lounge. Let's get it going with a topic that is supposed to be relevant to all of us: McCain's selection of Alaska governor Sarah Palin to be his VP running mate.

What was your initial reaction to her being chosen? Are you drawn to, repelled by, or just "meh" towards her? Did it change your view of McCain, and if so, for better or for worse?

I know very little about the political leanings of most ladies here, so any insight as to your views would be good.

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A little about me: I usually (but not always) vote Democrat, and was ambivalent about Hillary--her being a woman had nothing to do with my feelings--and decided on Obama after hearing his race speech earlier in 2008.

I was never even mildly drawn to McCain, and I was honestly downright repulsed when I heard that he had chosen a woman as his running mate. I could not believe that he would expect Hillary supporters to run towards him just because he chosen a female VP, but then I waited... and now I'm a little bit scared, I guess, to see exactly how many people (men and women alike) are leaning towards him and away from Obama.

Palin's interviews on ABC last week produced pretty visceral reactions in me, but then in talking with some female conservative friends, I began to wonder if we had watched the same program. They were full of praise for her. I guess I just don't know what the women of America really want. Or at least, what the undecided 2% of American women will want, when it comes to November 4th (since the other 98% will be split evenly between Obama and McCain, I suspect).

What do you ladies make of the situation?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

StellaLuna

She's a psycho nutbunny and can keep right the hell out of my uterus, thank you.

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Screw tradition!

abaya

Well, now THERE'S an opinion!! Way to get things started, Stella.

Yeah, I still can't figure out how ANY Hillary supporters (assuming they were truly democrats and not just fem-ocrats) could fathom getting behind someone who is pro-choice and abstinence-only and all the rest... but what do I know. Maybe some ladies here can enlighten me... I don't mean to step on any toes, but it is a very odd contradiction of values.

I would also like to know who is taking care of her 5 children while she's on the campaign trail, especially the baby. And who will take care of that special-needs kid if she becomes VP, or god forbid, P.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jewels

My politics are similar to yours, abaya. I, too, chose Obama over Clinton, but I had been repulsed by McCain when I first heard him in the round table debates.

I wasn't shocked that he'd chosen a female running mate, but I was shocked at the praise she gained over her speech at the RNC. I hadn't made a single judgment until her speech was over. Charm, they said. She'll get the on-the-fence Hillary voters, they said. One has to wonder if those watching the pundits made their decision based on those words from the talking heads.

I found her attitude to be condescending and downright cruel. I love the idea of women in power, but Hillary and Condoleeza and others have never stooped that low. I see Palin as lacking grace and class, not to mention her politics, which set women back quite a few decades. She scares me -- not because she could end up in the highest office, but because the media has somehow convinced so many women -- if we're to believe the stats, but that's another story -- that she represents them well. I didn't see her interview last week, but all the speaking sound bytes and articles I've read reinforce what I've seen from the night of the RNC.

One can only hope that once the debates begin, these undecided voters and Palin fans will hear the facts. I can't help but wonder if the excitement of the commentators influence the opinions of the viewers, much like the judges do on American Idol.

__________________
Politics is applesauce.


- Will Rogers

onesnowyowl

I'm wondering if the Republicans seriously think that women will vote for someone just because they have a uterus.

The promotion of Palin as a "woman's candidate" disgusts me. This woman is as pro-life as they come, preaches abstinence-only education as sound doctrine, and is against the use of birth control (clearly). While I am a fan of working mothers, I am a fan of working mothers with evidence of balance in their lives--something I have not seen from Sarah Palin, especially since her acceptance of the VP nomination. She is crass and appeals to the lowest common denominator. Do we really want someone like that a heartbeat away from running the country? I don't think so. Furthermore, she only got a passport just over a year ago. Do we want someone who's only traveled to Kuwait shaping our foreign policy? Oh, right, I forgot--Alaska is next to Russia and somehow that makes her more of an expert on those matters than Condi Rice (not that Rice has done a good job of handling things on that front, either, but at least she's got the ACTUAL CREDENTIALS to back it up).

The Republicans contend that Obama is the elitist candidate--I think he's the educated and intelligent candidate. I see evidence of neither between either McCain or Palin.

EDIT: And abaya, I gotta say--I love this idea of a politics thread in the LL. I think it will be interesting to see what the other ladies have to say on this topic.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

abaya

It's unfortunate that this might be what America is coming to... how, I really don't know, but it's definitely there.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

little_tippler

I am not American, so I can't really say I know all that much about Sarah Palin. From what I have read, I would not be voting for her individually. Even so, this is not a case of voting for her exactly, it's for her "team". She likes to use that term, team, and "team player" a lot it seems. She appears to be very driven, and a little hot-headed. Too much so for my taste.

What I have read about her so far that I don't like (I don't know if it's all true or not but some of it will be):

- in favour of the death penalty
- against same-sex marriage
- advocates the right to bear arms including possessing handguns
- pro-life, against abortion unless it's to do with the mother's life being endangered
- promoted a predator control policy (that was never put into practice) offering $150 dollars for every wolf shot down as a way to increase the moose population in Alaska. Funny that she used to go moose hunting as a child.
- the rumour that when she was Mayor of Wasilla she asked the town librarian how she would feel about library censorship. She later tried to fire the librarian but did not succeed.
-some say she has more than once crossed the line between government and personal grievance, pursuing personal vendettas
- the issue with pressuring then firing staff so they would not fire her ex-brother-in-law
- the issue with the bridges that go nowhere

Do with this what you will. As a by-stander who has little knowledge of American Politics, I am just giving you some food for thought!

Some of those reasons alone would be enough for me not to choose her for anything. I don't think she represents women well at all. She strikes me as a bully with a pretty face.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Katyanna

I could not have said this better myself. I feel that it was a set up for female voters. There were far better candidates for VP. I cannot help but feel that she was chosen condescendingly to appeal to female voters. I cannot express how much she repulses me. Her insistence on imposing her beliefs upon others. Her desire to control the bodies of women. Uff da.

ngdawg

She was chosen for two reasons-she's female and anti-choice.
Considering her unmarried 17 year old daughter is going to have a baby, her "abstinence only" stance ain't sayin much.

I'm not impressed.

This whole election is pathetic.

abaya

Are ya still gonna vote, though?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

merleniau

Damn, you beat me, abaya! I was on the fence about creating this same thread earlier today but had to figure out a FedEx account and didn't. :P

I agree with her being a psycho nutbunny. Crompsin and I were in the car commuting to work/school as we heard her speech on NPR.. and I just gasped and said, "you have to be fucking kidding me. McCain is pulling a dirty trick."

I can't stand Sarah Palin. I mean, voting for McCain is bad enough, but the possibility of her being president in the case of his demise scares the shit out of me. The entire country would be fucked.

What makes her nomination for VP even worse, though, is that a couple of my friends from OSU (or former friends, I still haven't decided which) who were hardcore Hillary supporters seem to have actually decided to vote for McCain/Palin. I can't believe it and don't want to believe they'll actually dump their own beliefs just to help a woman "break the glass ceiling."

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

abaya

See, now WHAT the hell... this is exactly what I don't understand. How can they do that, in any kind of good conscience? Do you think they secretly just don't like Obama, and are looking for excuses?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

merleniau

Well, they DID spend something like 18 months digging up reasons to dislike Obama, so I guess they're just continuing that trend.

When I asked her if she was being serious about changing parties, my friend answered with "well, now I just need to seriously look at both sides." WTF, why didn't you do that before?? Were you voting for Hillary based entirely on the fact that she has ovaries??

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

genuinegirly

That has to be it.

How can you be pro-death penalty and pro-life? Such a contradiction.
The minute she praised Hillary in her acceptance speech, I was out.

I haven't decided who I'll vote for. It will not be Obama. It will not be McCain.

I have kind of an odd way of doing things when it comes to voting for a president. Since the popular vote never really counts in the US, and California always votes democrat, I usually choose my favorite third-party candidate so in future election years that party will appear on the ballot (a third party needs a certain percentage of votes in order to reappear on the ballot for the next election year).

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"violence is no more or less real than non-violence. " roachboy

Medusa

Quoted for truth - I couldn't have said it better myself.

Her nomination, quite frankly, is an insult. Condi Rice, whom I have no love for, would have been a much better choice if McCain really wanted a woman as his VP. Hell, most anyone would have been a better choice. One of the first headlines I read after her selection was how she was gunning for undecided Hillary supporters - since their woman didn't make it, this "replacement" would be there to break the glass ceiling.

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annie1

I am typically not a very political person but Palin really scares me!

ngdawg

Yes and throw it away....really am gonna hit the Cynthia Ann McKinney button.

genuinegirly

Ah, but you can walk away with a clear concience. She stands up for human rights like nobody's business.

__________________
"violence is no more or less real than non-violence. " roachboy

Meditrina

I will never claim to understand anything political, but I would never vote for someone who doesn't stand for what I believe just because she is a woman. I think all of the other issues together are more important than the gender of the VP. Having said that, I will not be voting for McCain/Palin.

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"Each of us shines in a different way, but this doesn't make our light less bright" - author unknown

ally_cat

I think it's insulting that people involved in the McCain Campaign actually think Hillary Clinton supporters are going to vote for Palin just because she's a woman-as though women are too dumb to actually care about issues and will automatically vote for someone who looks like them. I think it's both scary and sad that the McCain campaign was somewhat right, and a significant number of female Clinton supporters are now supporting McCain/Palin. I don't get how anyone who is even remotely liberal-leaning could possible vote for her, and I really don't get why any Clinton supporters would vote for her, as they're different in every possible way, other than both of them having a uterus.

anti fishstick

This is a brilliant topic/idea. I don't know why we didn't think of this sooner!

I have always aligned myself as democrat and I was an Edwards supporter at first before joining the Obama camp. When I first heard John McCain had picked a woman for a running mate I thought it was all for show. And a cheap trick. This was before ever reading about Palin. She is very anti-woman's rights which is enough to make me run away. She supports drilling oil in Alaska, doesn't think polar bears are endangered or that global warming is man made... Completely backwards to my views all around.

Here is an interesting blog::
Women Against Sarah Palin
it's pretty empowering.

I hang around feminist blogs too so I've learned a lot about her through a feminist bent and I feel like a lot of what I'm saying is just a repeat of the things I've read.

Regarding "breaking the glass ceiling". For people to even comment that the Republicans/McCain are breaking the glass ceiling is absurd and makes me mad. I don't think the intent of the metaphor that Hillary originally said in her speech was for just ANY woman to "break the glass ceiling". I think she meant to pave the way for women to take power FOR women. Not a woman to take power that was against women. To think that Hillary supporters could fall for this is pretty sad. And I don't like the Rosie the Riveter/Sarah Palin posters either because it's pretty misguided, like they are trying to put a new face to Feminism which is actually a backlash to feminism..

That being said, I also really don't like the sexism that surrounds this campaign. VPILF? I mean, come on... As woman, we're always going to be reduced to either a fuckable slut or an old witchy hag. Nice. You never see articles about what male politicians are wearing (unless it involves a flag pin), yet there are articles about Hillary's cleavage, or Condi's boots, etc. etc.

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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

abaya

Yeah, this has been bothering me since the beginning (even though I hate Palin)... every time I hear a guy say, "Well, I'd do her" etc... it makes me want to punch something. Why the fuck is that necessary? Why is it even permitted?
-----Added 18/9/2008 at 04 : 44 : 22-----
That's what my dad has always done, in WA state, because it always goes blue... although this year, it seems like he's actually going to vote for Obama, which is kinda cool (for me). I have never particularly cared who he voted for, as long as he didn't vote republican, but this year I feel like it matters more than usual. If McCain wins, we will all be royally fucked, far more than if Obama wins. I am convinced of that.

Btw, so are all the TFP ladies non-republicans? I hope we haven't dissuaded anyone from expressing support for the other side, with our tone here...
-----Added 18/9/2008 at 04 : 45 : 29-----
I just hope that more of America's women will come to the same conclusion... it really alarms me that they just won't see it.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jewels

Nice. See how the ladies of TFP can discuss a political subject and, although there are minor differences in some of our beliefs, come to the same conclusion peacefully, without even a chipped nail?

__________________
Politics is applesauce.


- Will Rogers