Your baby was born with both male and female anatomy - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Miss Mango · 08-26-2008, 06:02 PM

WWYD if your baby was born with both male and female anatomy?

Saw a little clip about an adult who was born with both male and female anatomy. The parents decided that the baby would be raised as a boy. The boy grew up confused and felt like he never fit in.

When he became an adult, he decided that he wanted to live as a female. So, he happily lived as a woman for a long time.

For some reason, living as a woman was not working for her. She changed back to a male and says that that is what he will be forever.

As he explained his story, the pain and confusion that he has felt just broke my heart. His family has rejected him.

I began to wonder what I would do if I were to give birth to a baby like this. Drs. could do a blood test to determine male/female hormone levels. Still...I dont think that would be the deciding factor. The baby would grow up and I would wonder how he/she is going to feel.

WWYD? How would you decide gender for a baby such as this?

cybermike · 08-26-2008, 06:10 PM

Does a decision HAVE to be made at birth? If there's nothing life threatening about having both, Why not just hold off on a decision until they can make the decision for themselves.

JustJess · 08-26-2008, 06:39 PM

It's very confusing for a child to be raised without some kind of gender.

The most logical thing to do is to examine their genetics, anatomy, and hopefully their sensitivity to hormones as well as probable hormone production and then decide. (I don't think you can examine the hormone aspect until puberty, but I could be wrong about that. I'll check.) An example: There are some boys who are born insensitive to testosterone, and thus their bodies automatically develop female phenotypical characteristics. When they hit pubertal age, but never have a period, they get checked out and it's discovered that their "ovaries" are really testes, and they find out they're really male. However, in this case, most people (and I'd agree) choose to get hormone therapy and continue as females. The testes are removed as they're a high risk of cancer.

Clearly, in that case, you have your daughter continue as your daughter, and she'd probably agree.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2008, 06:59 PM

I don't know what I would do...I have no idea.

A lot of consulting with people like Jess, I imagine.

Katyanna · 08-26-2008, 07:02 PM

I am with you mixedmedia, I don't believe I could give just a quick answer without more information. I know little about the subject, I would not wish to cause issue for the child in the future. What a challenge.

Starkizzer · 08-26-2008, 07:20 PM

I'm in agreement with MM and Kat look at what the insides look like and not just what you want to have.

This reminds me of a show I watched a couple weeks back I think on TLC or on A&E. Twin boys in I'd say the 50's were born, went in for routine circumcision, the machine malfunctioned on one and burned off more than it was supposed to. Dr. told the parents to raise him as a girl and cut off his testicles. Now that's just messed up and wrong!

sapiens · 08-26-2008, 07:21 PM

You can't do much worse than the way that Dr. John Money helped David Reimer.

It's hard to say what I would do. Likely, I would try to help my child figure it out (as cybermike suggested).

cybermike · 08-26-2008, 07:24 PM

Well, I don't think it would take long for you to tell which sex the child identifies with the most. From what I know, transgendered people seem to identify with the opposite sex at very early age. I think they would know and you'd be able to choose a gender.

onesnowyowl · 08-26-2008, 07:36 PM

Regardless of gender, I would wait on surgery until my child had reached sexual maturity. What they want to be is something they need to have a say in. Yes, it's always difficult to be different, but this isn't that rare: 1 in 2000 live births involve a child with indeterminate genitalia.

Genetic testing and ultrasound can give parents a good idea as to what gender to raise their child, but for me personally that would probably end with whether to call him/her he or she, simply because I would prefer to raise my child in a gender neutral manner regardless.

I'd link you to a great article on the topic in the NYTimes Magazine from a few years ago, but alas, it won't let me. It's titled "What if It's (Sort of) a Boy and (Sort of) a Girl?" by Elizabeth Weil, and features a profile of Cheryl Chase, a well-known intersex activist.

UKking · 08-27-2008, 01:39 PM

I thought that nowadays they test your chromosomes to see which gender the newborn is more closely aligned with, and then make the decision based on that.

But I could be wrong.

dlish · 08-27-2008, 01:55 PM

the real question really is that can this person inseminate themselves if this person had both sex organs?

if so, what are the consequences? (apart from being mommy and daddy at the same time)

gives a whole new meaning to the term 'go fuck yourself'

sorry for the threadjack

luciferase75 · 08-27-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

the real question really is that can this person inseminate themselves if this person had both sex organs?

if so, what are the consequences? (apart from being mommy and daddy at the same time)

gives a whole new meaning to the term 'go fuck yourself'

sorry for the threadjack

Probably won't happen because the gonads almost never occur both as male and female. That would require 2 sets, which at embryological development would be very unlikely. Not impossible, but highly improbable. Only one pair are made, and they are generally the same.

It still wouldn't be a clone because of meiosis, but if there are recessive congenital diseases in the genes, the probability of expression is high. That is the consequence.

What I understand to typically happen in a situation like this is the clitoris becomes a penis, the vagina is malformed or intact, and ovaries develop. There are several other possibilities but surgery is most likely required for correction in those cases, and now we are back to the issue at hand.

Tough call, I would say it depends on how the genitals formed. I would avoid surgery when possible, personally. I know if I was born with both, I would probably have a spankin good time

levite · 08-27-2008, 02:38 PM

I'm going to go with what JustJess said: consult with doctors, run tests on genetics, hormone levels and receptivity, and so forth, and make a decision. But I would not wait until the kid reaches maturity to have the surgeons do something. I think that would end up creating massive confusion for the kid, much more so that potentially making the wrong choice. I think I make an informed choice for the sake of the kid's childhood, and if it turns out later that I chose wrong, then I say my mea culpas, and support the kid through gender reassignment surgery again.

genuinegirly · 08-29-2008, 02:06 PM

I would tell the child that they are whatever they choose to be.
I would call them by their gender non-specific name. Something like Shannon, Francis, Dominic, or Lauren.
It would be difficult to adjust my speech to never say "he" or "she", but I would do it until the child directed me otherwise.

Halx · 08-29-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

WWYD if your baby was born with both male and female anatomy?

I would think twice about banging my cousin.

World's King · 08-29-2008, 03:33 PM

Porn. duh.

ngdawg · 08-29-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

I would tell the child that they are whatever they choose to be.
I would call them by their gender non-specific name. Something like Shannon, Francis, Dominic, or Lauren.
It would be difficult to adjust my speech to never say "he" or "she", but I would do it until the child directed me otherwise.

Francis=boy. Frances=girl.
Dominic=boy. Dominique=girl.
Tricky, eh?

Leslie is neutral, Corey can be, Shawn, Billie, Chris, Pat...

Plaid13 · 09-02-2008, 08:10 PM

No idea But i did know someone like that when i was younger. Little girl that lived near me noone would have ever thought anything but hey thats a cute little girl. seemed perfectly normal untill her older butthead of a brother yanked her pants down in front of a half dozen kids all around 10-12 years old. Being one of those kids i was confused as hell for a while. But no one really brought it up other then a few random whispers. No idea if she/he whatever ever had surgery to finally just go one way or the other. I cant even imagine what life would be like living as a hermaphrodite.
Thats the kind of stress no child should have to deal with. But picking one sex or the other and having surgery done at a young age is a 50/50 chance. pick the wrong one and you end up with a gay kid and that could be just as hard for them to deal with. Or they will just feel like they are the wrong sex and thats got to be even more confusing.

Nisses · 09-03-2008, 04:04 AM

In this day, I think you would know before hand, no?

In that case I wouldn't let it happen in the first place. Call me a bad person because of it, but abortion would be a very possible option.

If you are dropped into this situation without prior knowledge, I would think that the worst possible solution for the child would be to pick one and work on that.
Only raising him as a 100% boy is denying him his nature obviously
Only raising her as a 100% girl is the same.

I think you'd have to break your paradigms a bit and make an omelet-child. (sorry, can't think of a better term for the moment, brain won't boot).

curiousbear · 09-03-2008, 11:34 AM

Tough stuff to handle. But no matter what one thing I am sure is I will never reject my child. I will encourage the kid to know both sexes and understand both worlds. When it is time the child will decide. If such a thing is possible in nature, it happens for a reason, and if the kid chooses to live both lifes... I will always be with my kid.

But technically having a penis (extra long clitoris) and a vulva is possible. But I guess having testes and ovaries/womb is not possible. Than the penis/vulva it is the testes/ovaries&womb that will determine the sex of the kid when it grows up. But I am no expert.

08-26-2008, 06:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
Miss Mango Psycho Join Date: Nov 2006	Your baby was born with both male and female anatomy WWYD if your baby was born with both male and female anatomy? Saw a little clip about an adult who was born with both male and female anatomy. The parents decided that the baby would be raised as a boy. The boy grew up confused and felt like he never fit in. When he became an adult, he decided that he wanted to live as a female. So, he happily lived as a woman for a long time. For some reason, living as a woman was not working for her. She changed back to a male and says that that is what he will be forever. As he explained his story, the pain and confusion that he has felt just broke my heart. His family has rejected him. I began to wonder what I would do if I were to give birth to a baby like this. Drs. could do a blood test to determine male/female hormone levels. Still...I dont think that would be the deciding factor. The baby would grow up and I would wonder how he/she is going to feel. WWYD? How would you decide gender for a baby such as this?

08-26-2008, 06:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
cybermike Why So Serious? Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Wut?	Does a decision HAVE to be made at birth? If there's nothing life threatening about having both, Why not just hold off on a decision until they can make the decision for themselves. __________________ (All opinions subject to change without warning.) "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

08-26-2008, 06:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Kittyville	It's very confusing for a child to be raised without some kind of gender. The most logical thing to do is to examine their genetics, anatomy, and hopefully their sensitivity to hormones as well as probable hormone production and then decide. (I don't think you can examine the hormone aspect until puberty, but I could be wrong about that. I'll check.) An example: There are some boys who are born insensitive to testosterone, and thus their bodies automatically develop female phenotypical characteristics. When they hit pubertal age, but never have a period, they get checked out and it's discovered that their "ovaries" are really testes, and they find out they're really male. However, in this case, most people (and I'd agree) choose to get hormone therapy and continue as females. The testes are removed as they're a high risk of cancer. Clearly, in that case, you have your daughter continue as your daughter, and she'd probably agree. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-26-2008, 06:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
mixedmedia loves you Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Florida	I don't know what I would do...I have no idea. A lot of consulting with people like Jess, I imagine. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus

08-26-2008, 07:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Starkizzer Hi floor! Make me a samwich. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Victorville/Pomona	I'm in agreement with MM and Kat look at what the insides look like and not just what you want to have. This reminds me of a show I watched a couple weeks back I think on TLC or on A&E. Twin boys in I'd say the 50's were born, went in for routine circumcision, the machine malfunctioned on one and burned off more than it was supposed to. Dr. told the parents to raise him as a girl and cut off his testicles. Now that's just messed up and wrong! __________________ Formerly LCfedup Starkizzer Fan Club President: im2smrt4u Vice President: Tully Mars Secretary of the Interior: jerseyboy

08-26-2008, 07:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Katyanna Psycho Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Minnesota	I am with you mixedmedia, I don't believe I could give just a quick answer without more information. I know little about the subject, I would not wish to cause issue for the child in the future. What a challenge.

08-26-2008, 07:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
sapiens Junkie Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Sonoran Desert	You can't do much worse than the way that Dr. John Money helped David Reimer. It's hard to say what I would do. Likely, I would try to help my child figure it out (as cybermike suggested). __________________ You can't go against nature Because when you do Go against nature It's part of nature too. - Love and Rockets Last edited by sapiens; 08-28-2008 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Spelling

08-26-2008, 07:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
cybermike Why So Serious? Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Wut?	Well, I don't think it would take long for you to tell which sex the child identifies with the most. From what I know, transgendered people seem to identify with the opposite sex at very early age. I think they would know and you'd be able to choose a gender. __________________ (All opinions subject to change without warning.) "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

08-26-2008, 07:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
onesnowyowl feeling evil Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Corvallis, Oregon	Regardless of gender, I would wait on surgery until my child had reached sexual maturity. What they want to be is something they need to have a say in. Yes, it's always difficult to be different, but this isn't that rare: 1 in 2000 live births involve a child with indeterminate genitalia. Genetic testing and ultrasound can give parents a good idea as to what gender to raise their child, but for me personally that would probably end with whether to call him/her he or she, simply because I would prefer to raise my child in a gender neutral manner regardless. I'd link you to a great article on the topic in the NYTimes Magazine from a few years ago, but alas, it won't let me. It's titled "What if It's (Sort of) a Boy and (Sort of) a Girl?" by Elizabeth Weil, and features a profile of Cheryl Chase, a well-known intersex activist. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

08-27-2008, 01:39 PM	#10 (permalink)
UKking Crazy Join Date: Jul 2007	I thought that nowadays they test your chromosomes to see which gender the newborn is more closely aligned with, and then make the decision based on that. But I could be wrong.

08-27-2008, 01:55 PM	#11 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Australia/UAE	the real question really is that can this person inseminate themselves if this person had both sex organs? if so, what are the consequences? (apart from being mommy and daddy at the same time) gives a whole new meaning to the term 'go fuck yourself' sorry for the threadjack __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere "Romance is never having to apologize for getting it in her hair" - World's King

08-27-2008, 02:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
levite Psycho Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hollywood	I'm going to go with what JustJess said: consult with doctors, run tests on genetics, hormone levels and receptivity, and so forth, and make a decision. But I would not wait until the kid reaches maturity to have the surgeons do something. I think that would end up creating massive confusion for the kid, much more so that potentially making the wrong choice. I think I make an informed choice for the sake of the kid's childhood, and if it turns out later that I chose wrong, then I say my mea culpas, and support the kid through gender reassignment surgery again. __________________ "How wrong Emily Dickinson was! Hope is not the thing with feathers. The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew. I must take him to a specialist in Zurich." Woody Allen

08-29-2008, 02:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
genuinegirly Force-Strong Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 805	I would tell the child that they are whatever they choose to be. I would call them by their gender non-specific name. Something like Shannon, Francis, Dominic, or Lauren. It would be difficult to adjust my speech to never say "he" or "she", but I would do it until the child directed me otherwise. __________________ "violence is no more or less real than non-violence. " roachboy

08-29-2008, 03:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
World's King V.I.P. Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Denver City Denver	Porn. duh. __________________ Stacks on deck. Patron on ice. We can pop bottles all night Baby you can have whatever you like I said you can have whatever you like.

09-02-2008, 08:10 PM	#18 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon Join Date: Apr 2003	No idea But i did know someone like that when i was younger. Little girl that lived near me noone would have ever thought anything but hey thats a cute little girl. seemed perfectly normal untill her older butthead of a brother yanked her pants down in front of a half dozen kids all around 10-12 years old. Being one of those kids i was confused as hell for a while. But no one really brought it up other then a few random whispers. No idea if she/he whatever ever had surgery to finally just go one way or the other. I cant even imagine what life would be like living as a hermaphrodite. Thats the kind of stress no child should have to deal with. But picking one sex or the other and having surgery done at a young age is a 50/50 chance. pick the wrong one and you end up with a gay kid and that could be just as hard for them to deal with. Or they will just feel like they are the wrong sex and thats got to be even more confusing.

09-03-2008, 04:04 AM	#19 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Join Date: May 2003 Location: Belgium	In this day, I think you would know before hand, no? In that case I wouldn't let it happen in the first place. Call me a bad person because of it, but abortion would be a very possible option. If you are dropped into this situation without prior knowledge, I would think that the worst possible solution for the child would be to pick one and work on that. Only raising him as a 100% boy is denying him his nature obviously Only raising her as a 100% girl is the same. I think you'd have to break your paradigms a bit and make an omelet-child. (sorry, can't think of a better term for the moment, brain won't boot). __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

09-03-2008, 11:34 AM	#20 (permalink)
curiousbear Insane Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: WA	Tough stuff to handle. But no matter what one thing I am sure is I will never reject my child. I will encourage the kid to know both sexes and understand both worlds. When it is time the child will decide. If such a thing is possible in nature, it happens for a reason, and if the kid chooses to live both lifes... I will always be with my kid. But technically having a penis (extra long clitoris) and a vulva is possible. But I guess having testes and ovaries/womb is not possible. Than the penis/vulva it is the testes/ovaries&womb that will determine the sex of the kid when it grows up. But I am no expert.