Help with Chipping - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

LoganSnake · 07-11-2008, 08:21 AM

Okay, so with the gas prices rising, I've been looking into putting a performance chip into my 02 Protege. I found this one on eBay for $23 (nevermind that the auction has ended, I'm sure it will be relisted), but since I know absolutely nothing about the car's inner workings, I don't know if it's a scam or not.

The description for the item is quite extensive, but I have no idea what half of the stuff in there mean. Can anybody advise if this will actually improve my mileage and performance?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL-...spagenameZWDVW

shakran · 07-11-2008, 08:40 AM

LOL!

if you could get 100hp and 30mpg increase from a $23 computer chip, don't you think the factory would have put it in there already?

Yeah, it's a scam, and it's not even a good one since it's so obvious.

A general rule of thumb - if you up an engine's horsepower, you generally are doing so by increasing its air/fuel volume. Either by making it take in and dispose of more air naturally (bigger intake, bigger exhaust, free-flowing filter, relocating the intake so that it takes in colder (more dense) air) or by force (turbo or supercharger, both of which stuff a lot more air into the engine by increasing the pressure in the intake). When the engine's computer sees that there's a lot more air coming in to the engine, it dumps a lot more fuel to make the air/fuel ratio correct.

In short, if you take an engine and increase its power output, you will increase its energy intake, which boiled down means more power = lower fuel economy.

As another general rule of thumb, to get 100hp extra from a single modification you have to do something extreme - we're talking slapping a big turbo on it - probably big enough that you'd have to build up the engine so you don't break things with the extra power. Getting 100hp from a chip is rather unlikely. Getting 100hp from a chip while getting a 30mph increase is impossible.

LoganSnake · 07-11-2008, 08:46 AM

So is there anything out there that would better the fuel economy without decreasing the power?

BadNick · 07-11-2008, 08:50 AM

Unless I missed something, it seems to me it only does this...quoted from that link:
"The way our Performance Modules work is by sending a modified signal through a factory sensor in the engine compartment, called the IAT sensor. This signal alters the computer and the computer then reprograms itself for a more efficient air/fuel mixture."

So it seems to only change the "IAT" inlet air temperature signal to the computer, which will then change (increase) the air/fuel ratio since it is being "tricked" into thinking the air is less dense (hotter) than it really is...thus the engine runs leaner and you can get better gas milage. Running the engine lean can also make more power though beyond a certain limit it can be damaging.

To me this device seems oversimplified and potentially harmful...meaning that I really don't know if this will cause the motor to run "too lean" under some condition and that will cause damage, maybe slow and suble damage that you won't see right away. So unless I saw more data about how this effects the motor under varying operating conditions, I wouldn't risk it.

The better (but probably more expensive) way to do this would be to directly program the computer to run higher a/f ratio; there are aftermarket fuel computers that allow you to do this, but I'm not sure how well they've "cracked" the Mazda ECU's - but I would guess pretty well...most nominal factory cruising a/f's would be in the mid to upper 14 range, say about a/f = 14.7. You can usually safely increase that to mid 15's at low load cruising speeds, but the computer would still add necessary fuel under higher load conditions.

PS: I have such hardware/software on my Supra...which allows me to take the signal from my wideband O2 sensor and program any kind of a/f ratio I want. So even though my motor makes over 700hp when I hammer the throttle, I can get very high 20 mpg range cruising down the highway at 70mph....on the track under high loads I usually think in terms of gallons per minute.

Cynthetiq · 07-11-2008, 09:11 AM

from the way the box looks in the photos t doesn't look legit . You reprogram the most important part of the EFI just by splicing something into the system? sounds fishy already

for $23 it would pay for itself in gas savings alone... another red flag.

Most chips, are replacement chips, or complete flash of the system with reprogramming. they also are in the low $200->$1,000 range.

I'd look for some mazdaspeed forums to see if someone knowledgable about proteges can put you with the right product.

here are some examples:
http://www.racepages.com/products/?D...94967264&Nty=1

LoganSnake · 07-11-2008, 09:33 AM

Definitely more expensive than $23.00

But even if I got them, I wouldn't know what to do with the item. Unless all I would have to do it plug it in.

Cynthetiq · 07-11-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Definitely more expensive than $23.00

But even if I got them, I wouldn't know what to do with the item. Unless all I would have to do it plug it in.

Most of the times, the chip is installed by a qualified installer. This is why high end chipsets have installation partners which make sure that they aren't causing havoc to the chip designers good name by faulty or poor installation.

Just think like you can brick your Xbox, Playstation, you can easily brick your car if not done correctly.

allaboutmusic · 07-11-2008, 10:29 AM

My brother had his VW Passat rechipped, and it went from 130bhp to almost 200bhp. His fuel economy improved by 5mpg. It's astonishing to drive now.

LoganSnake · 07-11-2008, 10:38 AM

How much did it cost? I wouldn't mind getting that kind of an upgrade at all.

allaboutmusic · 07-12-2008, 03:38 AM

250 pounds, about 500 dollars. It was quickly paid for by the savings in fuel.

MSD · 07-12-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

In short, if you take an engine and increase its power output, you will increase its energy intake, which boiled down means more power = lower fuel economy.

It's possible to get a compromise on a turbocharged car, but you trade economy and performance for reliability. The APR performance tune for Audi/VW 1.8T engines kicks you up by about 60hp and torque, but you also go up to around 35mpg if you cruise at 70-80mph (this is according to my former boss who had it done to his Passat.) By changing boost and injector timing, you can make more efficient use of the fuel at the cost of wastegate life span (but there are aftermarket parts designed specifically for this application to solve the problem.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

How much did it cost? I wouldn't mind getting that kind of an upgrade at all.

Looks like exactly what I'm talking about. Costs $600 around here.

Willravel · 07-12-2008, 07:38 PM

You don't want a chip to get better mileage. Even with a stand alone fuel management system that costs 100 times this bogus chip, it's quite difficult. Want to save gas? Drive slowly. Don't take off like you're Fast and Furious when the light turns green. Don't go over 68 on the highway. Use cruise control if you've got it. Park in the shade. Make sure your tires are inflated. Replace old air filters. Use decent oil. Remove extra weight from your car that you don't need. I don't even have back seats.

twistedmosaic · 07-13-2008, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

from the way the box looks in the photos t doesn't look legit . You reprogram the most important part of the EFI just by splicing something into the system? sounds fishy already

It's not a chip, it's a resistor. You put it inline with the Intake Air Temp sensor and it changes the reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

How much did it cost? I wouldn't mind getting that kind of an upgrade at all.

You can't get those kind of gains with a 'chip' on a car that isn't turbocharged--to pick up 70hp and 5mpg, I'm sure it was a turbo passat, and it turned up the boost.

It isn't worth spending money to buy something to increase your fuel economy, because the only things that would really help totally blow away any potential fuel savings. Just change your driving style and carefully monitor your tire air pressure.

Stare At The Sun · 07-13-2008, 01:27 AM

Best way to save gas is to drive like an old person.

Never go over 3,000 RPMs, never speed to a red light, coast as much as you can, accelerate slowly from stop lights and signs, if you see the light is red up ahead, take your foot of the gas.

If you do any amount of city driving, regardless of how much you speed, you'll probably only get to wherever you're going 2 minutes faster, at the most.

Save gas, and drive slower, and accelerate slower.

It's by far the best method.

twistedmosaic · 07-13-2008, 01:32 AM

Also, drive the speed limit on the freeway. 55 is best, but in Phoenix you'll get run over...even 65 (the limit on most of our freeways) in the slow lane makes people whip around you when traffic is moving 75-80, but get 5-6mpg better driving 15mph slower.

MSD · 07-13-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic

You can't get those kind of gains with a 'chip' on a car that isn't turbocharged--to pick up 70hp and 5mpg, I'm sure it was a turbo passat, and it turned up the boost.

It also leans out the fuel mixture as much as is safe when off boost.

souzafone · 07-24-2008, 06:07 PM

Look on an enthusiast site and you'll quickly find what you seek. The first step is to learn more about your car, so you know what mods are compatible. Incidentally, more HP < mpg, is misleading. It's actually HP being used, not max. power possible. My car might make over 50% HP than stock, but my mpg's have actually increased. Lower rpm's are possible with greater torque, boosting economy, unless you use the extra power.

07-11-2008, 08:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cake Town	Help with Chipping Okay, so with the gas prices rising, I've been looking into putting a performance chip into my 02 Protege. I found this one on eBay for $23 (nevermind that the auction has ended, I'm sure it will be relisted), but since I know absolutely nothing about the car's inner workings, I don't know if it's a scam or not. The description for the item is quite extensive, but I have no idea what half of the stuff in there mean. Can anybody advise if this will actually improve my mileage and performance? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL-...spagenameZWDVW __________________ Without a universal law there is no gravity. Without the gravity there is no atmosphere. Without an atmosphere there is no chance at life. And with no chance at life I don’t exist.

07-11-2008, 08:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cake Town	So is there anything out there that would better the fuel economy without decreasing the power? __________________ Without a universal law there is no gravity. Without the gravity there is no atmosphere. Without an atmosphere there is no chance at life. And with no chance at life I don’t exist.

07-11-2008, 08:50 AM	#4 (permalink)
BadNick sometimes Bad...sometimes not Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	Unless I missed something, it seems to me it only does this...quoted from that link: "The way our Performance Modules work is by sending a modified signal through a factory sensor in the engine compartment, called the IAT sensor. This signal alters the computer and the computer then reprograms itself for a more efficient air/fuel mixture." So it seems to only change the "IAT" inlet air temperature signal to the computer, which will then change (increase) the air/fuel ratio since it is being "tricked" into thinking the air is less dense (hotter) than it really is...thus the engine runs leaner and you can get better gas milage. Running the engine lean can also make more power though beyond a certain limit it can be damaging. To me this device seems oversimplified and potentially harmful...meaning that I really don't know if this will cause the motor to run "too lean" under some condition and that will cause damage, maybe slow and suble damage that you won't see right away. So unless I saw more data about how this effects the motor under varying operating conditions, I wouldn't risk it. The better (but probably more expensive) way to do this would be to directly program the computer to run higher a/f ratio; there are aftermarket fuel computers that allow you to do this, but I'm not sure how well they've "cracked" the Mazda ECU's - but I would guess pretty well...most nominal factory cruising a/f's would be in the mid to upper 14 range, say about a/f = 14.7. You can usually safely increase that to mid 15's at low load cruising speeds, but the computer would still add necessary fuel under higher load conditions. PS: I have such hardware/software on my Supra...which allows me to take the signal from my wideband O2 sensor and program any kind of a/f ratio I want. So even though my motor makes over 700hp when I hammer the throttle, I can get very high 20 mpg range cruising down the highway at 70mph....on the track under high loads I usually think in terms of gallons per minute. Last edited by BadNick; 07-11-2008 at 08:54 AM.

07-11-2008, 09:11 AM	#5 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Manhattan, NY	from the way the box looks in the photos t doesn't look legit . You reprogram the most important part of the EFI just by splicing something into the system? sounds fishy already for $23 it would pay for itself in gas savings alone... another red flag. Most chips, are replacement chips, or complete flash of the system with reprogramming. they also are in the low $200->$1,000 range. I'd look for some mazdaspeed forums to see if someone knowledgable about proteges can put you with the right product. here are some examples: http://www.racepages.com/products/?D...94967264&Nty=1 __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Independent, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

07-11-2008, 09:33 AM	#6 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cake Town	Definitely more expensive than $23.00 But even if I got them, I wouldn't know what to do with the item. Unless all I would have to do it plug it in. __________________ Without a universal law there is no gravity. Without the gravity there is no atmosphere. Without an atmosphere there is no chance at life. And with no chance at life I don’t exist.

07-11-2008, 08:40 AM	#2 (permalink)
shakran Tone. Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003	LOL! if you could get 100hp and 30mpg increase from a $23 computer chip, don't you think the factory would have put it in there already? Yeah, it's a scam, and it's not even a good one since it's so obvious. A general rule of thumb - if you up an engine's horsepower, you generally are doing so by increasing its air/fuel volume. Either by making it take in and dispose of more air naturally (bigger intake, bigger exhaust, free-flowing filter, relocating the intake so that it takes in colder (more dense) air) or by force (turbo or supercharger, both of which stuff a lot more air into the engine by increasing the pressure in the intake). When the engine's computer sees that there's a lot more air coming in to the engine, it dumps a lot more fuel to make the air/fuel ratio correct. In short, if you take an engine and increase its power output, you will increase its energy intake, which boiled down means more power = lower fuel economy. As another general rule of thumb, to get 100hp extra from a single modification you have to do something extreme - we're talking slapping a big turbo on it - probably big enough that you'd have to build up the engine so you don't break things with the extra power. Getting 100hp from a chip is rather unlikely. Getting 100hp from a chip while getting a 30mph increase is impossible.

07-11-2008, 10:29 AM	#8 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated Join Date: Oct 2007	My brother had his VW Passat rechipped, and it went from 130bhp to almost 200bhp. His fuel economy improved by 5mpg. It's astonishing to drive now.

07-11-2008, 10:38 AM	#9 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cake Town	How much did it cost? I wouldn't mind getting that kind of an upgrade at all. __________________ Without a universal law there is no gravity. Without the gravity there is no atmosphere. Without an atmosphere there is no chance at life. And with no chance at life I don’t exist.

07-12-2008, 03:38 AM	#10 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated Join Date: Oct 2007	250 pounds, about 500 dollars. It was quickly paid for by the savings in fuel.

07-12-2008, 07:38 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	You don't want a chip to get better mileage. Even with a stand alone fuel management system that costs 100 times this bogus chip, it's quite difficult. Want to save gas? Drive slowly. Don't take off like you're Fast and Furious when the light turns green. Don't go over 68 on the highway. Use cruise control if you've got it. Park in the shade. Make sure your tires are inflated. Replace old air filters. Use decent oil. Remove extra weight from your car that you don't need. I don't even have back seats. __________________ ɯǝɥʇ ǝʌlos uɐɔ ǝʍ ʇɐɥʇ ǝɔuɐɹouƃı ɥƃnoɹɥʇ ʇou sı ʇı 'sɯǝlqoɹd ǝʇɐǝɹɔ uɐɔ ǝƃpǝlʍouʞ ɟı

07-13-2008, 01:27 AM	#14 (permalink)
Stare At The Sun Eh? Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ohio	Best way to save gas is to drive like an old person. Never go over 3,000 RPMs, never speed to a red light, coast as much as you can, accelerate slowly from stop lights and signs, if you see the light is red up ahead, take your foot of the gas. If you do any amount of city driving, regardless of how much you speed, you'll probably only get to wherever you're going 2 minutes faster, at the most. Save gas, and drive slower, and accelerate slower. It's by far the best method. __________________ Tempus fugit et nos fugimus in illus.

07-13-2008, 01:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
twistedmosaic Inane Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wunderland	Also, drive the speed limit on the freeway. 55 is best, but in Phoenix you'll get run over...even 65 (the limit on most of our freeways) in the slow lane makes people whip around you when traffic is moving 75-80, but get 5-6mpg better driving 15mph slower. __________________ ☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻ ☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻ ☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻ ☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻☻

07-24-2008, 06:07 PM	#17 (permalink)
souzafone Insane Join Date: Apr 2003	Look on an enthusiast site and you'll quickly find what you seek. The first step is to learn more about your car, so you know what mods are compatible. Incidentally, more HP < mpg, is misleading. It's actually HP being used, not max. power possible. My car might make over 50% HP than stock, but my mpg's have actually increased. Lower rpm's are possible with greater torque, boosting economy, unless you use the extra power.