wheelhomies

Hmmm. I'm not really sure if this is posted in the right place, but I figured it fits here well enough.

Just wondering how astrology is generally received here on TFP, so what are your thoughts about it?

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Sun Tzu

Well this pretty much sums up my opinion on it.




After watching that zietgeist video I now know that it had allot more influence on that writing of the Bible than I first thought.

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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang Goethe

DaveOrion

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board. I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either. Strangely enough I've had a lion avatar for years, because I'm a Leo, and only recently changed to the machine gun doggie.

Even though I'm not a devout believer, I still check my horoscope from time to time.....they are vague, but often seem to fit.

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

Sun Tzu

It would be one thing if it were a matter of trying to explore astrology if the signs matched up to what everyone thought they were. Thats the whole point you are not a Leo (or at least you werent born under the sign of a Leo).


I have an open mind, but did you watch the video?

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None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang Goethe

DaveOrion

I didn't watch the video, but I am aware that the signs no longer match up correctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac

None the less I am still a Leo and always will be. Its not scientifically accurate, but I want be changing signs due to the precession of equinoxes.

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

tecoyah

Much like most aspects of pseudo science, its fun to think about...and likely has some merit..somewhere.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ngdawg

I am not a firm believer in astrology, but pretty close.
Most Leo's I know are the same, Scorpio's are the same in general, as are Virgo's.Every Leo I ever dated and every Leo friend but one has destroyed the trust I had in them. Every Scorpio had strong take-charge behaviors with higher than average intelligence and every Virgo is optimistic, has definite unwaivering opinions and is creative. I've had my birthsign correctly guessed on numerous ocassions.
When I worked at the middle school, I noticed a little fact: every year's class had its own 'personality'; one was boisterous and prideful, another was full of loners and angry kids, yet another was quiet but friendly. Teachers noticed it too and we wondered if birth years had some sort of astrological influence on general behavior/personality. It wasn't just their group age-they came in the same way they left.

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Racnad

I don't beleive that the position of the sun relative to random patterns of stars in our galactic neighborhood has any relavance to anything, but I have noticed as ngdawg has that people born during certain times of the year seem to have certain personality traits. I tend to be drawn to people who happend to be certain signs, most of the women I've dated (or at least my favorites) have been certain signs.

I regularly read two horoscope columns published in the two alternative weekloes in Seattle. Their horoscopes for myy sign often don't match well, but both authors seem to be wise insightful people and I find it worth my time (a total of about a minute each week), to read their pearls of wisdom as applied to people with my personality traits who happen to be born about the same time of year as me.

I understand that Chinese astrology is based on the year someone is born in rather than the month. You might do sme research on that and see if there's any corrolation between the personality profiles of these classes and what Chinese astrology would predict for them.

Lady Sage

Astrology is a very complex form of divination. No, I do not have a degree in astrology, I have, however, been reading charts with a superior degree of accuracy for over 8 years. I have taught classes on the subject and been asked to do psychic fairs because of my accuracy on the subject.

Astrology can not tell you the name of the person you are going to marry, it can not tell you if your marriage will last forever.

What it CAN do is tell you what careers you would be best suited to, what challenges you will have, what personality defects a person may have... what blessings the person will have, what things will cause them much joy.

One of the last charts I have read was for a very closed mouthed friend of mine who was a non-believer. I looked at her chart(a circle with symbols and colorful lines) and told her of her childhood, what it was like for her as a young adult. How one of her husbands beat her and about that little(ok big) hellacious streak she went through when her give-a-damn was beyond busted.

She was awestruck. In all the years I had known her she never told me any of that. I also told her before looking at her chart- do not have someone you do not trust read your chart. You will likely be ashamed at some of the things one will see.

News paper horoscopes are bullshit. You can show me 3 people born on the same day in the same year, each only hours apart from the next. Their horoscopes will be different. Every day, different.

As the minutes pass the circle of a chart turns. When someone is born, it forms a chart. Even twins wont be the same. A new sign on the horison, a trine turns into a sextile- a conjunct becomes a square. Small changes such as that can pull twins in totally opposite directions.

Enough ramblings. You will either believe or you will not. It is not my job to pull you in either direction.

I guess my point is- it is easy to disprove something one knows little or nothing about. It is harder to believe in something that challenges your current beliefs.

Good luck to anyone who hopes to engage me in an argument of right/wrong on this topic. You are entitled to your opinion. I know what the facts are. I have been there and lived that. Each one of us has seen something that no one else could possibly believe. Refer to the first two lines of my signature if you hope to try.

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ngdawg

Over a year ago, I and another TFP'er had our charts done by a member of another forum. He hadn't read his(they were posted), but I did and was dumbstruck-it was so spot on, it could have been written by his mother! When he finally read it, he too was very impressed. Mine, on the other hand, hit about 50%. Career was completely off, as were many observations in lines of thought. Not sure why, as I gave my date and time of birth-I think the actual time makes a difference, no?
The most accurate astrology I've ever read was in an ancient Hebrew astrology book.(the book wasn't ancient, the contents were). The book, as I recall, did not refer to Kabala at all, but in reading it(I was a teen), I began to think there's something to this and it affirmed my beliefs of interconnections to our universe.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Ustwo

I can't prove there is not a invisible tea cup that is causing me to type this right now, but that doesn't mean its a valid topic of discussion.

The human brain has evolved to see patterns, and sometimes we see them where there is not merit. There is a difference between being open minded and being naive.

Examples: People see lights 'go dim' when they go by. Answer: Obviously they are 'causing' the light to go dim. (Yes this very topic was on this board).

Example: I keep looking at the clock when its 11:11 Answer: Obviously there is something mystical about 11:11. (This one is amusing to me because AFTER I read about those 11:11 nuts I now notice every time I see its 11:11)

Astrology only makes 'sense' in hindsight. You look at the 'prediction' and then see what happened, and then connect the dots yourself. It has no value as a prediction but because your brain can connect some aspects of it to what happened you assume it must have seen a future.

Astrologers themselves I'd move into two categories, charlatans and larpers.

The charlatans are easy, if I were an astrologer I'd be a charlatan and a damn good one. I'd also throw in my knowledge of astronomy in general to really 'sex up' my 'reports' (I'd call them reports at any rate). Using basic psychology, minimal investigation of the person I'm writing my 'report' for, and then throwing in my own advice for what I thought was good for them, I'd be able to really have fun with it. Only I have enough respect for others to not use people like that.

Larpers are those who believe it, study it, read it like I used to read my D&D manual, know all the rules and sub rules, and whos' rules they like to follow, and then come up with something that follows those rules, only the end result is no more real then my old flaming sword +3. Some seem to try to be 'scientific' others more mystical, but regardless its garbage in garbage out. Of course I can't 'prove' its garbage, but you can never prove something is false scientifically only that its not a strong hypothesis.

So am I suppose to respect and accept everyones unprovable fantasy? Treat it special? We already do that with religion, which I think is the wrong approach, there is nothing sacred in my book, but I'm not going to just smile politely to anyone who thinks they can tell something about you based on where the planets and hydrogen balls are.

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RenaissanceII

I believe that those who tie their lives to, or believe that they are predestined to go a certain path based on what their horroscope says (or from other sources) are making a serious mistake.... If I read what Lady Sage wrote correctly, it is more of an informational thing.....

It is the menu, it ai'nt the meal.... don't eat the menu, cook and eat the meal....

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I Wish You Well.

Nimetic

I personally see astrology as a throwback to earlier beliefs and, um, somewhat of a rip-off.

But I don't have much urge to push my view here. People believe different things.

albania

What makes something science is not whether it can be proved right, it's whether it can be proved wrong. If a theory can't be proved wrong then it's not science. I'm talking about any science that has an experimental component. Math, for example, could be called a science without an experimental component. When one comes up with a theorem in mathematics no one goes out to perform an experiment to see if it's correct. Everything is proven true based, ultimately, on a set of axioms.

DaveOrion

Thanks Ustwo & albania. We've all heard the scientific rhetoric a million times on this board, we all know all about it. With that being said, maybe we should give the OPer, ngdawg, LadySage and others a little respect, and a chance to post, even though we don't agree with their views. Bringing up the same old tired scientific axiom argument or the completely useless invisible tea cup analogy isnt helpful, tactful or needed in this thread, IMO. If you dont think this is a valid topic, find another topic that you think is.

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albania

I didn't say anything about astrology I was commenting on what you wrote. Obviously in my opinion astrology wouldn't fit that definition of science. But, how does the fact that you're tired of hearing something make it inappropriate for the thread, and how does my not believing the same thing as someone else equate to me not showing respect?

Ustwo

I'm sorry I won't use that 'logic' thing anymore, its offensive.'

Edit: You know this requires a bit more explanation.

Lets say you want to believe some unprovable thing, hell lets say you want to have it somehow decide what you want to do in life, thats fine. What you do or believe is your own problem.

Astrology doesn't work like that though. Its not what someone does for themselves, but for others. The more society is polite and accepts this kind of thing as somehow worthy of at least respect, the more will assume there must be 'something' to it.

I'd rather not have someone taking their kid to an astrologer to give them career counseling. I'd also guess the most common questions revolve around love and money and do we really want demonstrably unqualifiedly people giving that sort of advice?

We live at a time when scientists are really discovering the stuff of the universe and what life is made of, and yet more people believe in ghosts and astrology than they did in the 60's. Something is very wrong with that.

At what point do we say enough is enough and its great that you have this 'belief' but I am not going to be polite about it, its false, its silly, and its at best a waste of time and at worst harmful?

You know my guess is some people have gotten good advice from astrologers, but its not based on some long flawed star chart but just normal human interaction. Why should we coat in some mystic fluff and not just state it for what it was?

And finally, astrology isn't something that is done for free by a lot of these people. Its a money making venture. If someone is selling snake oil you want that known, if a drug doesn't do what it says it may make the national news, and astrology does not do what it advertises. That makes it a scam in my book and worthy of public scrutiny at a 'scientific' level.

Yes I'm not being 'nice', but I am being honest, I'm not going to pretend I find anything of value in astrology, nor do I want someone else to think 'hey maybe I should look into that'.

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DaveOrion

Theres your answer wheelhomies, I thought I'd play devils advocate for you. I didnt read the last post, wasnt worth the effort, but thats how it goes around here, whether its astrology, UFO's, ESP, or anything without a solid basis in science, as I said before.

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

Charlatan

Dave... Ustwo is absolutely in his rights to state his position (and I am not saying that just because I happen to agree with him). If others wish to carry on a discussion about Astrology and the like, please carry on. If their belief is that strong, it should be able to stand up to the positions and beliefs of others.

At the worst, choose to ignore Ustwo's words and carry on. At best, engage and take him on in his position. That is the nature of discussion. It is the nature of Internet Forums.

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DaveOrion

Of course he's within his rights, that wasnt the point. Wheelhomies asked how astrology would be received on this board, and I gave her the quick low down on how all such things are received here.

I've said this before too, science cant answer the really interesting questions, some things are simply beyond that. It serves a useful purpose but isnt the end all, for every discussion. Many members would rather avoid discussing anything on the fringe of logic because of the overwhelming need of other members to post a calculated scientific retort to all such inquiries.

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

Charlatan

I don't know what else to say but, that is their loss. If you believe in something or wish to discuss something, I don't see why anyone else having an opposing opinion (regardless of how passionate) should effect your belief system (unless your belief is just that shaky to begin with).

The point is, people are not always going to understand or believe in the same things you will (that's the universal you). To seek out only those who share your point of view is limitation to personal growth and probably one of the more nasty sides to a conservative mind set (nasty in that most don't see it as conservative... or see that they have such a lazy way of interacting with a difference of opinion).

But perhaps that's just me.

(and yes, I think this should go both ways in a discussion)

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DaveOrion

Its not the opposing viewpoint thats the problem, its the way that point is verbalized. If you read the thread then you saw ladysage state that she believes in astrology. Along comes Ustwo and says there are 2 kinds of astrologists, charlatans & larpers, basically calling ladysage either of the 2. I personally don't think name calling is appropriate, thats usually the result of a 'holier then thou' attitude, and only encourages unneeded confrontations on an other wise peaceful thread. I will apologize to albania, his post wasn't disrespectful, he just got caught in the middle.

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

tecoyah

It is important (in my opinion) to understand that while some people feel the pull of eclectic, or "new age" thoughts, others will never try to consider it. In the case of Ustwo, he is adamantly opposed to accepting anything outside his frame of reference in my experience, and though he can be gruff at times has much to share in the opposing spectrum. I doubt he was intentionally trying to be cruel, or disrespectful....it simply the way he communicates in this medium. Just wear the heavy leather coat while reading his replies, very few have a thick enough skin.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha