Conspiracy Theory- The Government Part II - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Sun Tzu · 01-06-2008, 01:17 AM

Side note***It may be easy to see where my beliefs lie after going into some of the threads I’ve started. I have not always carried these opinions. I was conservative at one time. I come from a very large ultra-conservative family. Some of my friends are die hard Republicans still. I have become the “black sheep” to many of my relatives and former friends. There was a time that I was on the other side; viewing conspiracy theorists as paranoid whackos. Its not appropriate to go into how and why there has been a drastic change, but I will say that I have traveled all over this Earth. Both in and out of the military. One thing was common in all my travels- I was always happy to come home. I’m not attempting to knock some of the lands I have seen or the cultures I experienced, but I feel fortunate to have been born in the US. I also am not suggesting that it is only conservatives the see conspiracies as crazy or they are inherently corrupt. It’s my love for this country that fuels the anger I have for what I believe is going on and what its building up to.

I could present this material as information gathered by what the official story is verses the “Conspiracies”. However doing so would not reflect my personal opinion. So keep in mind when I reflect my conclusions, they are only that: my conclusions. I say that because I don’t want to put IMO in front of every statement. So points made on things such as history, I’m not getting on a soap box and telling anyone “the way things are”. Anyone here can find information as easy as I. Conspiracies sometimes exist because it is counter to what the “official” story is.

A person can deny they were eating popcorn in the house you were in. Even if you found a burnt jiffy pop container on the stove, popcorn on their shirt, and a piece stuck to their tooth as they explained it wasn’t them. If they were careful to wipe up greasy buttered fingerprints, all you are left with is circumstantial pieces of information and observations. With government conspiracies it would be a reasonable argument to think coincidental events simply aren’t enough. Those that don’t believe the government would do shadowy acts (not referring to clandestine operations- but actions of self interest) are usually further convinced that the theories are to over the top when linked with the “reasons” why they would happen.

My opinion- They(motivating reasons) have been going on for a very long time, they still happen today. The assassination of JFK marked a turning point IMO. Its when “they” (I wont go into who they are in this thread) had him killed and blatantly got away with it, confirmed what some may have strongly suspected, but the select few already knew- they will do as they please because the American public either wont believe it, wont care, or feel powerless to stop it.

I see LBJ as one of the most sinister of all Presidents. I’d like to say allot more but it would be more of an angry rant so I will just present the points of why I have come to this conclusion, and everyone can judge for themselves.

Here is a president that had a thing for the utilization for “False Flag Operations”. The definition: False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities.

One was successful, one was not. JFK had signed an order that was going to pull American forward observers out of Vietnam and cease any engagement there after. Within only a few days after his assasination Johnson reversed the order. Official records will state the USS Turner and USS Maddox were attacked by NV boats, but even Johnson questioned the validity of the reports. Obviously, it was enough to inspire The Bay of Tonkin lie. To certain indiviuals I’m sure the Vietnam war was a success where as spreading democracy was the furthest thing from their minds.

His next false flag however was a complete failure. The arragonce behind this treasonous act is astonishing. I say is because justice was never served nor will ever be unfornately. The flase flag was the USS Liberty. On a clear day on June 8, 1967 Israel attacked the USS Liberty with aircraft and torpedo boats, killing 34 young men and wounding 171. It has been dismissed as an accident/ (Congress) I see the real version as a collaborated effort by certain officials in Israel and Johnson to bring the US into the Israeli/Egyptian war. This was going to be accomplished by sinking the USS Liberty, killing its crew, and blaming it on the Egyptians. It failed.

The following short video is not to be seen as “the source of information” from which a person will draw their conclusion. Rather an organized collection of media to point out where a person can being to look further for themselves. I have only included for that very purpose.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRZSzdQuOqM&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRZSzdQuOqM&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Why are so many intent to hide past events? Because many of the involved are still very much alive, and IMO they are not close to being finished. Traders and criminals.

www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/pdbnews/

MSD · 01-06-2008, 07:35 PM

Conspiracy theories arrive to fill a void left by an incomplete or implausible official story. They are typically relegated to the fringes of discussion, many times rightfully so.

The USS Liberty incident has an official story so full of holes that I could not believe it, even in the absence of a competing theory. From an intellectual standpoint, I recognized that for the official story to be the truth, incompetence and blindness would have to have been so widespread as to render the perpetrators useless in a military field or command situation. I'll have to investigate further on my own, especially the LBJ quote about wanting the ship to go to the bottom, but at least it gives me a starting point. A false flag operation to get us involved makes more sense in this case than the bumbling idiocy that would have led to the claimed accident. I don't like to think that our leaders could be so callous in their disregard for their oath of office and for the people they lead, but in rare cases it's as bad as it looks on the surface. As of now, I'm keeping an open mind, but what you're proposing is plausible and worth looking into.

Ustwo · 01-07-2008, 08:44 AM

The attack on the USS Liberty was a colossal fuck up, I think on the American side even more then the Israelis, but a fuck up.

While the theory that the ship was to be sunk by Israel and then claim it was the Arabs is nice on paper, the attacking ships were clearly flying the Israeli flag, something that doesn't make any sense if you were trying to start a war under a false pretext.

Sun Tzu · 01-07-2008, 10:25 AM

The American flag was being flow as well, not that the words USS Liberty wouldn’t inform the world exactly what vessel it was. The only reason the torpedo boats stopped was due to a Soviet vessel approaching the area. In any case, why would the Israelis worry about their flags if the intent was to sink the ship and kill any witnesses. They were shooting at the life boats as well.

Ustwo · 01-07-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

The American flag was being flow as well, not that the words USS Liberty wouldn’t inform the world exactly what vessel it was. The only reason the torpedo boats stopped was due to a Soviet vessel approaching the area. In any case, why would the Israelis worry about their flags if the intent was to sink the ship and kill any witnesses. They were shooting at the life boats as well.

Actually the life boat thing was disputed even by members of the Liberty and it would be absolutely moronic to be flying your own flag in such an attack even if you were going for no survivors, something that is by no means guaranteed. The life rafts themselves were unmanned. Intercepted and declassified radio recordings have Israel clearly stating they thought it was an Arab ship and they even sent helicopters to look for Arab survivors.

Being the Liberty had a radio, something that could be intercepted and recorded, you wouldn't not want their last words to be 'Israeli torpedo boats attacking'.

My interpretation is that Israel is a poor job of identifying the target, they claimed something like 13 passes by aircraft, but the crew claims none. Neither side seemed able to read the others light signals. The Liberty opened fire on the torpedo boats, THEN ordered a cease fire, but continued to fire due to error. The torpedo boats fired and then backed off. Some claimed they strafed the ship as well, others don't. They and the Captain of the Liberty state that the Israeli boats offered help after they realized their mistake.

The Liberty was a converted cargo ship, Israel did not attack with bombs, and did not sink her, something that should not have been overly difficult, especially if you were trying to make sure there were no survivors. The concept of a Soviet ship near by causing them to pull out is pure speculation and doesn't cover any of the other obvious flaws in the theory that it was a deliberate attack, though a Soviet ship did eventually reach them.

Edit: I will add I'm glad you brought this up, because I always wondered what happened but never remembered to look into it. I just found a rather excellent link on the subject.

http://www.sixdaywar.org/uss-liberty.asp

I saw a History channel documentary on it, which painted an ugly picture, which is ironically debunked at this site.

host · 01-07-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

..... http://www.sixdaywar.org/uss-liberty.asp

I saw a History channel documentary on it, which painted an ugly picture, which is ironically debunked at this site.

I know this is "paranoia", but you've linked to and quoted from an Israeli backed, propaganda organization's website:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=CAMERA

Quote:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...1e8boston.html
Time for the truth about the Liberty

By Ward Boston Jr.
June 8, 2007

(Link to Boston's 2004 affadavit: http://www.ussliberty.org/bostondeclaration.pdf )

Forty years ago this week, I was asked to investigate the heaviest attack on an American ship since World War II. As senior legal counsel to the Navy Court of Inquiry, it was my job to help uncover the truth regarding Israel's June 8, 1967, bombing of the Navy intelligence ship Liberty.

On that sunny, clear day 40 years ago, Israel's combined air and naval forces attacked the Liberty for two hours, inflicting 70 percent casualties. Thirty-four American sailors died, and 172 were injured. The Liberty remained afloat only by the crew's heroic efforts.

Israel claimed it was an accident. Yet I know from personal conversations with the late Adm. Isaac C. Kidd – president of the Court of Inquiry – that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity.”

The ensuing cover-up has haunted us for 40 years. What does it imply for our national security, not to mention our ability to honestly broker peace in the Middle East, when we cannot question Israel's actions – even when they kill Americans?

Today, survivors of Israel's cruel attack will gather in Washington, D.C., to honor their dead shipmates as well as the mothers, sisters, widows and children they left behind. They will continue to ask for a fair and impartial congressional inquiry that, for the first time, would allow the survivors themselves to testify publicly.

For decades, I have remained silent. I am a military man, and when orders come in from the secretary of defense and president of the United States, I follow them. However, attempts to rewrite history and concern for my country compel me to share the truth.

Adm. Kidd and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy's official investigation, though we both estimated that a proper Court of Inquiry would take at least six months.

We boarded the crippled ship at sea and interviewed survivors. The evidence was clear. We both believed with certainty that this attack was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.

I am certain the Israeli pilots and commanders who had ordered the attack knew the ship was American. I saw the bullet-riddled American flag that had been raised by the crew after their first flag had been shot down completely. I heard testimony that made it clear the Israelis intended there be no survivors. Not only did they attack with napalm, gunfire and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned at close range three life rafts that had been launched in an attempt to save the most seriously wounded.

I am outraged at the efforts of Israel's apologists to claim this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.”

Adm. Kidd told me that after receiving the president's cover-up orders, he was instructed to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Department of Defense and rewrite portions of the court's findings. He said, “Ward, they're not interested in the facts. It's a political matter, and we cannot talk about it.” We were to “put a lid on it” and caution everyone involved never to speak of it again.

I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent to Washington. I know this because it was necessary, due to the exigencies of time, to hand-correct and initial a substantial number of pages. I have examined the released version of the transcript and did not see any pages that bore my hand corrections and initials. Also, the original did not have any deliberately blank pages, as the released version does. In addition, the testimony of Lt. Lloyd Painter concerning the deliberate machine-gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and including in the original transcript, is now missing.

I join the survivors in their call for an honest inquiry. Why is there no room to question Israel – even when it kills Americans – in the halls of Congress?

Let the survivors testify. Let me testify. Let former intelligence officers testify that they received real-time Hebrew translations of Israeli commanders instructing their pilots to sink “the American ship.”

Surely uncovering the truth about what happened to American servicemen in a bloody attack is more important than protecting Israel. And surely 40 years is long enough to wait.

<i>Boston served as chief counsel to the Navy's Court of Inquiry into the attack on the U.S. Navy intelligence ship Liberty. He also served as a naval aviator in World War II on the carrier Yorktown and as an FBI agent prior to his assignment to the Navy's Judge Advocates General Corps. He is a graduate of the the College of William and Mary School of Law and a resident of Coronado.
</i>

Quote:

http://www.ussliberty.org/helmstext.htm
Richard Helms was the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency from 1966-1973.

Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the accident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded that the attack was a mistake and "not made in malice against the U.S." When additional evidence was available, more doubt was raised....

... This prompted my Deputy, Admiral Rufus Taylor, to write me his view of the incident. "To me, the picture thus far presents the distinct possibility that the Israelis knew that the Liberty might be their target and attacked anyway, either through confusion in Command and Control or through deliberate disregard of instructions on the part of subordinates."

The day after the attack, President Johnson, bristling with irritation, said to me, "The New York Times put that attack on the Liberty on an inside page. It should have been on the front page!"

I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israeli's knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack.

http://www.ussliberty.org/rusk.htm
Dean Rusk, Johnson's Secretary of State (in the only known instance where he disagreed with the President) wrote:

....although an Israeli attack on Liberty was far easier to deal with. But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

Rusk's memoirs: "As I Saw It" (W.W.Norton, 1990) p388

If this thread was exclusively about the attack on the USS Liberty, the above statements seem compelling enough to move this discussion to the "politics" forum.

Ustwo · 01-07-2008, 11:21 AM

They most likely edited Wikkipedia then too, as that was the source of most of my specifics. I only found that site trying to confirm Sun Tzu's statement about a soviet ship.

My only introduction to it was a very slanted History Channel piece, and while I enjoy the history channel from time to time, they also put on shows that take hauntings seriously, and presented a documentary stating LBJ had Kennedy killed with only minimal disclaimer so I know to take anything on there as just a start, not truth.

And there is absolutely no point in moving this into politics unless you have a theory that makes some sense as to why Israel would do this on purpose as it happened?

host · 01-07-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

They most likely edited Wikkipedia then too, as that was the source of most of my specifics. I only found that site trying to confirm Sun Tzu's statement about a soviet ship.

My only introduction to it was a very slanted History Channel piece, and while I enjoy the history channel from time to time, they also put on shows that take hauntings seriously, and presented a documentary stating LBJ had Kennedy killed with only minimal disclaimer so I know to take anything on there as just a start, not truth.

And there is absolutely no point in moving this into politics unless you have a theory that makes some sense as to why Israel would do this on purpose as it happened?

You most likely appreciate that anyone can edit a wiki article, but that most are usually quickly cleansed of newly added, indefensible distortion, but some slip through the cracks.

I posted that IF, the thread was exclusively about Israel attacking the USS Liberty, the statements that I posted, including the sworn affadavit of Mr. Boston, merit moving the discussion to politics....it isn't, but I think the record of official American opinion, Helms, Rusk, and more recently, Boston's 2004 affadavit, elevate the incident to what could be described in US history textbooks as the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty. The argument against it is so "polluted" with Israeli promoted disinformation, that it would need, to be taken seriously, supporting opinions from US officials with responsibilities at the time of the incident, that are at least equivalent to those of Helms, Rusk, and Boston.

Ustwo · 01-07-2008, 12:01 PM

Yea yea use your own brain host and tell me why YOU think they would have done it.

Lets see, attack a ship of our major ally, flying our own flags, and do a half assed job of it.

host · 01-07-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yea yea use your own brain host and tell me why YOU think they would have done it.

Lets see, attack a ship of our major ally, flying our own flags, and do a half assed job of it.

I meant to comment on that in my last post. I view "telling you why I think they would have done it", as something that is not necessary to determine the most likely scenario.

It is so similar to the way you react to the questioning of the official scenario of the 9/11 attacks. One can advance an argument that the official "story" of the collapses of WTC, 1,2, and 7, at near free fall descent speed, and completely into their own footprints, is extremely unlikely to have happened the way the government tells us they fell, without being required to offer another scenario about how and why the collapses happened.

Sun Tzu · 01-07-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

They most likely edited Wikkipedia then too, as that was the source of most of my specifics. I only found that site trying to confirm Sun Tzu's statement about a soviet ship.

My only introduction to it was a very slanted History Channel piece, and while I enjoy the history channel from time to time, they also put on shows that take hauntings seriously, and presented a documentary stating LBJ had Kennedy killed with only minimal disclaimer so I know to take anything on there as just a start, not truth.

And there is absolutely no point in moving this into politics unless you have a theory that makes some sense as to why Israel would do this on purpose as it happened?

I should back up and say I have read about the soviet ship in a couple of spots. I started to go searching for them and did find it mentioned, but not at sites that would bring anymore credability to what I will call just speculation at this point. I also have heard other versions such as they halted because of hearing American jet fighters were on the way, not recieving the news they were actually called back. I'll keep looking. So at this point I have to say the Soviet ship is speculation, although I believe it is true.

MSD · 01-08-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

sworn affadavit of Mr. Boston ... more recently, Boston's 2004 affadavit,

This article from George Mason University makes some good points about the affidavits and why his testimony isn't necessarily as credible as it seems.
http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html

Ustwo · 01-08-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

It all started with former Illinois congressman Paul Findley (who was defeated for re-election after he announced his support for the terrorist organization, the PLO) and former California congressman Paul "Pete" McCloskey, who speaks regularly at meetings of Holocaust denial organizations in California and Washington and was defeated for re-election. Findley and McCloskey were the moving force in founding the Liberty Veterans Association. Findley served as its advisor and McCloskey incorporated the association and served as its attorney. They continue to manipulate and distress Liberty survivors and their families by prodding this old wound and preventing its healing – all for their own political agenda. And what is that agenda? Findley and McCloskey are also the founders of the Council for the National Interest (CNI), whose publicly announced purpose is to be the anti-Israel lobby.

Good article MSD, I read the whole thing, and this helps bolster my thoughts that the only conspiracy here is for some anti-zionists to attempt to form a rift between the US and Israel.

Sun Tzu · 01-11-2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

This article from George Mason University makes some good points about the affidavits and why his testimony isn't necessarily as credible as it seems.
http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html

It sounds like a good wrap up, much like the warren commission. I think the movment by eye witness survivors demanding justice to this day , is for only that justice. Its stated by many that the worn out song of anti-zionism isnt going to make this one go awway. Thats is a cop out in any case, especially since there is no "rift" to widen becasue there is no rift. Any means of hardware to go defend the ship were called back for some "reason". There were two sides at play here, not an evil zionistic entity bent on ignoring a US flag flying clear.

He did get some details straightened out instead of 172 injured ssailors, 171 and one NSA. I might have missed it, but he is saying no bombs were dropped. OK Does that mean he is stating there was no napalm? I have to read it again to formulate exactly where he took this.

host · 01-11-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

This article from George Mason University makes some good points about the affidavits and why his testimony isn't necessarily as credible as it seems.
http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Good article MSD, I read the whole thing, and this helps bolster my thoughts that the only conspiracy here is for some anti-zionists to attempt to form a rift between the US and Israel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

It sounds like a good wrap up, much like the warren commission. I think the movment by eye witness survivors demanding justice to this day , is for only that justice. Its stated by many that the worn out song of anti-zionism isnt going to make this one go awway. Thats is a cop out in any case, especially since there is no "rift" to widen becasue there is no rift. Any means of hardware to go defend the ship were called back for some "reason". There were two sides at play here, not an evil zionistic entity bent on ignoring a US flag flying clear.

He did get some details straightened out instead of 172 injured ssailors, 171 and one NSA. I might have missed it, but he is saying no bombs were dropped. OK Does that mean he is stating there was no napalm? I have to read it again to formulate exactly where he took this.

I have to disagree with all three of you. Too many US officials have openly stated that they believe the USN Liberty was deliberately attacked. Ustwo, what is with your pro-zionist sentiment? Are you a pro-zionist Jew, by way of one or both of your parents? I have strong sympathies and admiration for Jewish people and their culture (I was romantically involved in a live-in relationship with a wonderful Jewish woman for four years in the late '90's), but I am anti-zionism, abhorring the influence of the ultra conservative Israeli and ultra conservative US alliance that makes AIPAC's influence so damaging to US foreign and domestic policy. That influence intimidates our elected officials and pressures the US to act against it's own best interests, hardly a pro-American political position to embrace, IMO.

I am convinced that the material in the first two quote boxes casts doubt on Jay Cristol's challenge of Ward Boston, and of his entire argument that Israel did not attack intentionally:

Quote:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...e29libert.html
Attack on the Liberty

Lifting the 'fog of war'

By David C. Walsh
The damaged U.S. intelligence ship Liberty arrived in Malta. An Israeli torpedo blew a 40-foot hole in the Liberty's hull. U.S. Navy Naval Historical Center photo collection

March 28, 2004

...The story of the intelligence ship in a sense resembles the Liberty herself: both refuse to go down. The heartbreaking saga is kept afloat by mutually antagonistic partisans – I dub them the "deliberates" and the "accidentalists."

Periodically, the dispute flares anew, each side throwing punch and counterpunch. Some strikes are errant, or glancing, or below the belt; others, solid hammer blows the recovery from which seems impossible.

Occasionally, as now, the action is in synch. In one "corner" are a retired Navy JAG captain-cum-judge and the government of Israel; in the other, Liberty survivors, former leaders of the highly secret National Security Agency and other spooky types. The judge, A. Jay Cristol, has written a controversial book, "The Liberty Incident." It alleges that the furious attack on the U.S. Navy ship (tasked by the NSA and the Pentagon's Joint Chiefs of Staff) was what Israel since 1967 has claimed: a "friendly-fire" accident, the sort that bedevils every war.

For their part, Liberty supporters assert that the ex-Navy lawyer is merely the latest, albeit most effective, in a long series of apologists for Israel....

...The sad slugfest continues.

<h3>In June 2003, I published an investigative article in the United States Naval Institute's Proceedings magazine; one that drew on some unusually well-informed people. These weren't Israelis (Judge Cristol supplies those)</h3>, but American intelligence leaders. They were addressing the tragedy for the first time; partly, some said, because of the Cristol book. Also included were interviews and conversations with the Liberty's surviving cryptanalysts and other specialists.

In total, they pointed the way toward an unsettling conclusion: The Cristol/Israeli explanation of "accidental attack in the fog of war" may have grown so threadbare as to be virtually unsustainable....

<h3>David C. Walsh's June, 2003 article in the United States Naval Institute's Proceedings magazine:</h3>

Quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200406050...PROwalsh06.htm
Friendless Fire?

By David C. Walsh

Proceedings, June 2003

...Revisiting the Incident

In December 2002, the Naval Historical Center hosted a presentation on the still deeply controversial attack by Federal Judge and retired U.S. Naval Reserve Captain A. Jay Cristol, on a promotional tour for his recent book, The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship. Based on Judge Cristol's doctoral thesis, the book relies heavily on newly declassified (or newly interpreted) documents and more than 500 interviews with U.S. and Israeli political and military leaders involved in the incident, including former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, Admiral Isaac Kidd, and Yitzhak Rabin, who was the Israeli Defense Force Chief of Staff at the time. Only seven of the interviewees, however, were on board the Liberty during the attack.2.....

...But instead of punishing the attackers, Israel honors them in a museum. Told of the display, retired Air Force Major General John Morrison, NSA deputy director for operations at the time, commented, "I am offended by that." And retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom, NSA director from 1985 to 1988, and also unaware of the display, remarked, "I am astonished that Israel should put glory on the people who killed my SigInt-ers [signals intelligence personnel]."10 The Liberty's blood-stained flag is exhibited at the National Cryptologic Museum in Fort Meade, Maryland.

Disputed Timelines and Communications

Although Liberty crew members insist the attack lasted about an hour and a quarter, Judge Cristol's book asserts that the Israeli jets and MTBs finished their grisly business in only 22 to 25 minutes.11...

http://web.archive.org/web/200405100...Owalsh06-3.htm

..Perhaps the widest chasm separating the "mistakens" from the "deliberates" is the Naval Court of Inquiry. Ordered convened a week after the event by Commander-in-Chief Naval Forces Europe, Admiral John McCain, and headed by Rear Admiral Kidd, the hearing is dubbed "remarkably competent (and) thorough" by Judge Cristol, "a doctored sham" by the veterans.42 The judge stresses that 14 seamen spoke at the hearing. But ship's officers Ennes, Painter, Golden, and others charge that in dozens of cases, sworn testimony damaging to Israel's case was not allowed or, if allowed, not entered into evidence or made part of the transcript. Thus, Ennes and the LVA charge, the court's Findings of Fact often were unsupported by the evidence, contravening Navy rules of procedure.43...

....Meanwhile, survivors contest Judge Cristol's statement that "some" had changed their minds after the inquiry, noting that he fails to identify them or crew members he claims agree the attack was an accident. Others also have changed their minds, including Captain Ward Boston, the senior Navy lawyer under pressure to give a peremptory evaluation of the Navy Board of Inquiry. In 2002, Boston dropped a bombshell on Judge Cristol's thesis. He informed Navy Times that Israel had knowingly assaulted the Liberty and has worked ever since to "try to get out of it." As surprising, he said, was that the court's president, Rear Admiral Kidd, shared this view, but owing to political pressure from Washington announced the opposite conclusion to the media. "Officers," Boston remarked, "obey orders." Boston explained in the interview that he was speaking now in part because "everyone else is shooting his mouth off."47

Judge Cristol could not explain what might have inspired such candor, although he writes that the late Admiral Kidd had told him that the attack was in error. That is the opposite of what Ennes maintains concerning his "many talks" with Admiral Kidd. Ennes also says that Admiral Kidd urged him and his group to keep pressing for an open congressional probe. Meanwhile, Judge Cristol has Boston recanting his Navy Times statements. In reality, Boston stands firmly behind them.48...

...A final aspect of the Judge Cristol treatise, although not part of the point/counterpoint, has engendered the survivors' special disdain. The judge all but ignores them. Of 500-plus interviews conducted over more than a decade, only seven were with crewmen.50 "If he spoke to us," says Ennes, "it would blow his thesis out of the water—as the Israelis tried to do with our ship." He adds, "Not a single one of us agrees with Cristol."51 Judge Cristol replies that survivor/witnesses are not objective. And, unlike Ennes, he "writes history, not memoirs."

None of this may matter, because official support for the crew remains nonexistent. But growing numbers of former senior government and military officials have begun speaking out. Among those in support of the ship's 200-plus survivors, in addition to those mentioned previously and in the accompanying sidebar, are: former Chief of Naval Operations and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer, then CIA Director Richard Helms, then-NSA Director Marshall Carter, Carter's Deputy Louis Tordella (who wrote on the Israeli Navy's report, "A nice whitewash!"), NSA "Liberty incident" analyst Walter Deeley, and Hayden Peake, professor of intelligence history at the Joint Military Intelligence College and retired CIA officer.52

Why, Judge Cristol was asked at the Navy Yard, did his conclusions run so afoul of such seniors? He answered that although they were respectable men, their contradictions baffled him. In general, he suggests that because theirs are not firsthand knowledge, contrarian officials' statements may, like the survivors', be dismissed.53

Judge Cristol is not without his admirers. He counts (besides numerous Israeli officials, Israeli Defense Force officers, and other partisans) former CIA Director Admiral Stansfied Turner and the carrier America's captain, late Vice Admiral Donald Engen.54 But the supernova in this galaxy is Secretary McNamara. Quoted by Judge Cristol as seeing only "tragic error," McNamara's stock answer when queried by other Liberty researchers is, "I remember nothing about the incident."...

....Former NSA Officials Agree
David C. Walsh

The jamming of unique U.S. frequencies during the Liberty incident seems to establish deliberate intent. And in exclusive interviews with this author, several former high-level National Security Agency (NSA) officials agree.

On 14 February 2003, the "godfather" of the NSA's Auxiliary General Technical Research program, Oliver Kirby, noted that the Liberty was "my baby." Within weeks of the calamity, Kirby, deputy director for operations/production, read U.S. signals intelligence (SigInt)-generated transcripts and "staff reports" at NSA's Fort Meade, Maryland, headquarters. They were of Israeli pilots' conversations, recorded during the attack. <h3>The intercepts made it "absolutely certain" they knew it was a U.S. ship, he said. Kirby's is the first public disclosure by a top-level NSA senior of deliberate intent based on personal analyses of SigInt material.</h3>

In an interview on 24 February 2003, retired Air Force Major General John Morrison, the agency's then-second-in-command (and Kirby's successor), <h3>said he had been informed at the time of Kirby's findings and endorsed them. Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom said on 3 March 2003 said that, on the strength of such data, the attack's deliberateness "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the agency. On 5 March 2003, retired Navy Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, NSA director from 1977-1981, said he "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli thesis.</h3> "It is just exceedingly difficult to believe that [the Liberty] was not correctly identified." He said this was based on his talks with NSA seniors at the time having direct knowledge. All four were unaware of any agency official at that time or later who dissented from the "deliberate" conclusion.

Quote:

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wlmcgon.htm
CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR SOCIETY
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
CHARTERED BY THE CONGRESS

FROM THE DESK OF:
CAPTAIN WILLIAM L. McGONAGLE, USN (RET.)
MEMBER, CMOH SOCIETY

October 24, 1998

AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON

Re: Jonathan POLLARD

1. Please DO NOT release Jonathan POLLARD, a convicted traitor of the United States, to the Government of Israel, as part of the Middle East peace process, or for any other reason.

2. Please DO NOT release Jonathan POLLARD to the Government of Israel where he could continue to cause irreparable security harm to the United States of America.

3. Please DO NOT release Jonathan POLLARD to the Government of Israel until and unless the Government of Israel acknowledges, in writing and publicly, that the Government of Israel's armed forces (air and naval) deliberately attacked USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5) (A Technical Research Ship) on June 8, 1967.

Israeli aircraft conducted surveillance of the ship within moments of our arrival on station off the coast of the Sinai on the morning of June 8, 1967. The ship was soon identified as USS LIBERTY by Israeli Naval Headquarters, by referring to "JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS" 1966 OR 1967 issue, which showed a photograph of the ship and listed in detail its characteristics. In fact, an identification "tower" was placed on their Battle Plot with an "A" on the tower to identify the ship as an American ship. The plot was not kept up to date, and was removed when the watch changed at noon that day. The ship was overflown on several occasions before the attack commenced. An Israeli Naval Officer went to the American Embassy Naval Attache' to obtain information that the ship was indeed USS LIBERTY, but the US Naval Attache' did not have our operating schedule, so he could neither confirm or deny that the ship was the USS LIBERTY.

When the attack began about 2:00 p.m. (local time) the ship was subjected to relentless and repeated murderous fire from the attacking aircraft (which were unmarked - a violation of international law). The gun crews of the two (2) bow .50 cal. machine guns were killed during the initial strike on the ship. We could not man the starboard bridge level .50 cal. machine gun, because our life boat was burning (1) deck below and the heat did not allow anyone to approach the gun. We could not man the port bridge level .50 cal. machine gun, because two (2) 55 gallon gasoline drums were burning furiously one (1) deck below. Again the heat of the flames prevented anyone from approaching the gun. WE WERE DEFENSELESS against the onslaught of eight (8) or more firing passes by at least four (4) aircraft, and the strafing and launching of five (5) torpedoes by three (3) motor torpedo boats. That a larger number of casualties was not reported is a tribute to the fighting spirit of the officers, crew, civilians, and Marines, when they had nothing to defend themselves with, during our awesome hours of peril....

.... The Government of Israel shortly after the attack acknowledged that their armed forces conducted the assault. The apology for the attack was accepted, but <h3>the reason for the attack as "misidentification" was never accepted by the US Government.......</h3>

....Except for a few high ranking naval officers, no one has felt our pain of not knowing exactly why the ship was attacked. Over thirty-one (31) years after the attack, the crew is entitled to know the details concerning the attack by the Government of Israel and also the details of the role the US Government in the entire affair. Why were our aircraft recalled to their carriers on two (2) occasions before they reached our location to assess the situation, and what official ordered the recall after "Hot Line" communication was established with Moscow to alert Nasser that the planes were being sent to see what the condition of USS LIBERTY was? .....

<h3>..This is the only US Navy ship attacked by a foreign nation, involving a large loss of life and so many personnel injured that has never been accorded a full Congressional hearing...</h3>

.....I was the Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5) at the time of the attack, and was presented the Medal of Honor, by the Secretary of the Navy, at the Navy Yard on June 11, 1968, for my performance of duty during the attack and post-attack recovery period.

4. Please DO NOT delay release of Jonathan POLLARD, until after the elections on November 3, 1998, if it is your intention to release him, with or without due consultation with US military and security experts. If you are going to release him in any case, please let the people know of your intentions and executive action before they vote in the upcoming elections.

Very respectfully,
William L. McGonagle
Captain, USN (Ret.)

Capt. McGonagle was awarded the Medal of Honor in an unusual ceremony, and without the president there to present the medal:

Quote:

Los Angeles Times
Thursday, March 11, 1999

Obituaries
Capt. William McGonagle; Won Medal of Honor After Israelis Attacked Ship
By JON THURBER, Times Staff Writer

When Navy Capt. William L. McGonagle received his Medal of Honor, it was not bestowed on him by the president, as is customary, or even presented at the White House. McGonagle, who died last week at 73, was given his award in the relative seclusion of a shipyard near Washington by the Navy secretary. For all of McGonagle's heroism, he was still part of an incident that the U.S. and Israeli governments would rather forget.....

Quote:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001508.php
June 29, 2006
Reflections on the USS Liberty and Gilad Shalit: Disproportionate Response

....Americans have a lot to be thankful for that they didn't live under this Israeli government during the Cold War because the hot-headed, lack of restraint would have surely led to a nuclear exchange with the Soviets if Israel had been at the helm.

Israel would do well to go reacquaint itself with the USS Liberty, which Israelis fired on killing American servicemen. I have had a discussion with someone who was the former head of the U.S. National Security Agency who has no doubt at all that Israel's attack on the U.S. ship was purposeful and not an accident, as Israelis and Americans eager to cover up the incident have asserted.

America's response was measured and put in context -- whether one agrees with that or not. Israel got a huge pass....

-- Steve Clemons
Posted by steve at June 29, 2006 12:25 PM

Proabably the most recent study of the events of the attack on the USN Liberty to be published by a military officer:

Quote:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTR...c=GetTRDoc.pdf
USAWC STRATEGY RESEARCH PROJECT
ASSAULT ON THE USS LIBERTY: DELIBERATE ACTION OR TRAGIC ACCIDENT?
by
Colonel Peyton E. Smith
United States Army
Commander Mark A. Stroh
Project Adviser
This SRP is submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements of the Master of Strategic Studies Degree.
The U.S. Army War College is accredited by the Commission on Higher Education of the Middle States
Association of Colleges and Schools, 3624 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, (215) 662-5606. The
Commission on Higher Education is an institutional accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary
of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.
The views expressed in this student academic research paper are those of the author and do not reflect
the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S.
Government.
U.S. Army War College
CARLISLE BARRACKS, PENNSYLVANIA 17013

March 30, 2007
page 12

Interpretation of Events
Over the years, since the USS Liberty’s attack, viewpoints of what individuals and
governments believe to have occurred remain in dispute. These differences generally fall into
two camps.

page 13

The first camp believes the unfortunate incident was due to the fog and friction of
war, causing the USS Liberty to be mistakenly identified as an Egyptian vessel. The second
camp believes the attack on the USS Liberty was a well-planned and coordinated operation by
the Israeli Defense Forces.

The Israeli government has consistently stated the USS Liberty was a tragic accident.
The fear of an Egyptian attack from the sea compounded with the explosion at al-‘Arish, set the
events into motion.74 The torpedo boats miscalculated the speed of the ship at 30 knots which
would classify it as a war ship. The torpedo boats’ top speed was 36 knots. When the torpedo
boats called in air support, the Mirages didn’t see any ship identifications and proceeded with an
air strike. More air support arrived and continued the strike with rockets, cannon, and napalm.
One of the aircraft identified the ship markings as GTR-5 and immediately realized the vessel
was not Egyptian as Egyptian ships were normally marked with Arabic lettering not Latin. The
air strike was cancelled.

The torpedo boats were ordered to stop the attack and remain at a safe distance. This
message was documented in the log book of the torpedo boat, but the mission commander
claimed to have never received it. The crew of the torpedo boats determined the enemy vessel
to be the El Quseir.75 Since the USS Liberty was returning machine gun fire, the torpedo boat
continued the assumption that the vessel was hostile and launched a series of torpedoes with
one striking the ship. Israel then sent helicopters to confirm the identity of the ship; made aware
of the tragic mistake,76 they immediately contacted the US Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv.77
Many people who were witnesses to the events that day, or were involved in the
aftermath, disagree with Israel’s position of mistaken identity. They argue that many of the
details are not consistent with what they saw occur, or that the overwhelming data and
circumstantial evidence do not support the concept of mistaken identity, or both. The notion that
the torpedo boats miscalculated the speed does not make sense as this supposedly occurred at
1341. At that time, the torpedo boats were beyond their maximum radar range and could not
possibly have picked up the USS Liberty. Therefore, it would have been impossible to calculate
any speed since the USS Liberty was not even on radar.78

The attack on the USS Liberty was sudden and powerful – the aircraft did not take the
time to identify the ship.79 If it had, the American flag and the markings GTR-5 would have been
clearly visible, as it was to the earlier maritime reconnaissance flight that morning. The weather
was sunny and clear with a good breeze.80 Later in the attack, the original 5x8-foot flag was
destroyed and replaced immediately with a holiday 9x15-foot flag.81 Furthermore Dwight Porter,

page 14

US Ambassador to Lebanon, saw a transcript of an intercepted Israeli message given to him by
the CIA station chief:

<i>Israeli planes had been given the order by the IDF (Israel

01-06-2008, 01:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Event Horizon	Conspiracy Theory- The Government Part II Side note*It may be easy to see where my beliefs lie after going into some of the threads I’ve started. I have not always carried these opinions. I was conservative at one time. I come from a very large ultra-conservative family. Some of my friends are die hard Republicans still. I have become the “black sheep” to many of my relatives and former friends. There was a time that I was on the other side; viewing conspiracy theorists as paranoid whackos. Its not appropriate to go into how and why there has been a drastic change, but I will say that I have traveled all over this Earth. Both in and out of the military. One thing was common in all my travels- I was always happy to come home. I’m not attempting to knock some of the lands I have seen or the cultures I experienced, but I feel fortunate to have been born in the US. I also am not suggesting that it is only conservatives the see conspiracies as crazy or they are inherently corrupt. It’s my love for this country that fuels the anger I have for what I believe is going on and what its building up to. I could present this material as information gathered by what the official story is verses the “Conspiracies”. However doing so would not reflect my personal opinion. So keep in mind when I reflect my conclusions, they are only that: my conclusions. I say that because I don’t want to put IMO in front of every statement. So points made on things such as history, I’m not getting on a soap box and telling anyone “the way things are”. Anyone here can find information as easy as I. Conspiracies sometimes exist because it is counter to what the “official” story is. A person can deny they were eating popcorn in the house you were in. Even if you found a burnt jiffy pop container on the stove, popcorn on their shirt, and a piece stuck to their tooth as they explained it wasn’t them. If they were careful to wipe up greasy buttered fingerprints, all you are left with is circumstantial pieces of information and observations. With government conspiracies it would be a reasonable argument to think coincidental events simply aren’t enough. Those that don’t believe the government would do shadowy acts (not referring to clandestine operations- but actions of self interest) are usually further convinced that the theories are to over the top when linked with the “reasons” why they would happen. My opinion- They(motivating reasons) have been going on for a very long time, they still happen today. The assassination of JFK marked a turning point IMO. Its when “they” (I wont go into who they are in this thread) had him killed and blatantly got away with it, confirmed what some may have strongly suspected, but the select few already knew- they will do as they please because the American public either wont believe it, wont care, or feel powerless to stop it. I see LBJ as one of the most sinister of all Presidents. I’d like to say allot more but it would be more of an angry rant so I will just present the points of why I have come to this conclusion, and everyone can judge for themselves. Here is a president that had a thing for the utilization for “False Flag Operations”. The definition: False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. One was successful, one was not. JFK had signed an order that was going to pull American forward observers out of Vietnam and cease any engagement there after. Within only a few days after his assasination Johnson reversed the order. Official records will state the USS Turner and USS Maddox were attacked by NV boats, but even Johnson questioned the validity of the reports. Obviously, it was enough to inspire The Bay of Tonkin lie. To certain indiviuals I’m sure the Vietnam war was a success where as spreading democracy was the furthest thing from their minds. His next false flag however was a complete failure. The arragonce behind this treasonous act is astonishing. I say is because justice was never served nor will ever be unfornately. The flase flag was the USS Liberty. On a clear day on June 8, 1967 Israel attacked the USS Liberty with aircraft and torpedo boats, killing 34 young men and wounding 171. It has been dismissed as an accident/ (Congress) I see the real version as a collaborated effort by certain officials in Israel and Johnson to bring the US into the Israeli/Egyptian war. This was going to be accomplished by sinking the USS Liberty, killing its crew, and blaming it on the Egyptians. It failed. The following short video is not to be seen as “the source of information” from which a person will draw their conclusion. Rather an organized collection of media to point out where a person can being to look further for themselves. I have only included for that very purpose. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRZSzdQuOqM&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRZSzdQuOqM&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> Why are so many intent to hide past events? Because many of the involved are still very much alive, and IMO they are not close to being finished. Traders and criminals. www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/pdbnews/ __________________ None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang Goethe** Last edited by Sun Tzu; 01-06-2008 at 01:19 AM.

01-07-2008, 08:44 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	The attack on the USS Liberty was a colossal fuck up, I think on the American side even more then the Israelis, but a fuck up. While the theory that the ship was to be sunk by Israel and then claim it was the Arabs is nice on paper, the attacking ships were clearly flying the Israeli flag, something that doesn't make any sense if you were trying to start a war under a false pretext. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-07-2008, 10:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Event Horizon	The American flag was being flow as well, not that the words USS Liberty wouldn’t inform the world exactly what vessel it was. The only reason the torpedo boats stopped was due to a Soviet vessel approaching the area. In any case, why would the Israelis worry about their flags if the intent was to sink the ship and kill any witnesses. They were shooting at the life boats as well. __________________ *None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang Goethe*

01-07-2008, 11:21 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	They most likely edited Wikkipedia then too, as that was the source of most of my specifics. I only found that site trying to confirm Sun Tzu's statement about a soviet ship. My only introduction to it was a very slanted History Channel piece, and while I enjoy the history channel from time to time, they also put on shows that take hauntings seriously, and presented a documentary stating LBJ had Kennedy killed with only minimal disclaimer so I know to take anything on there as just a start, not truth. And there is absolutely no point in moving this into politics unless you have a theory that makes some sense as to why Israel would do this on purpose as it happened? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-07-2008, 12:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	Yea yea use your own brain host and tell me why YOU think they would have done it. Lets see, attack a ship of our major ally, flying our own flags, and do a half assed job of it. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-06-2008, 07:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
MSD Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: CT	Conspiracy theories arrive to fill a void left by an incomplete or implausible official story. They are typically relegated to the fringes of discussion, many times rightfully so. The USS Liberty incident has an official story so full of holes that I could not believe it, even in the absence of a competing theory. From an intellectual standpoint, I recognized that for the official story to be the truth, incompetence and blindness would have to have been so widespread as to render the perpetrators useless in a military field or command situation. I'll have to investigate further on my own, especially the LBJ quote about wanting the ship to go to the bottom, but at least it gives me a starting point. A false flag operation to get us involved makes more sense in this case than the bumbling idiocy that would have led to the claimed accident. I don't like to think that our leaders could be so callous in their disregard for their oath of office and for the people they lead, but in rare cases it's as bad as it looks on the surface. As of now, I'm keeping an open mind, but what you're proposing is plausible and worth looking into.