Fluoride: Drinking, Showering, and Brushing with Poison - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Sun Tzu · 01-30-2008, 05:32 PM

When a person has the choice to purchase toothpaste with or without fluoride seems like a fair practice. Similar to cigarettes, if a person decides to undertake a habit that increases the risk of contracting serious health problems, its their choice to do so.

Unless a large portion of the population decides to use a filter on their shower head and buy bottled water; they are begin dosed with levels of fluoride that are questionably toxic.
The CDC promotes community fluoridation as safe. After a minor amount of research I found irony in the fact it was much easier for me to find information on fluoride being harmful than dangerous.

If in fact the additional fluoride we receive from water (also in a lot of foods and carbonated beverages) is harmful, then why is the CDC promoting it?

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_Ys9q1cvKGk&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_Ys9q1cvKGk&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gBmVY8lUcXg&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gBmVY8lUcXg&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KOJ0hhla0WA&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KOJ0hhla0WA&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

I found this to be an interesting site. While its intentions are obvious, the collection of information has a wide span.

www.nofluoride.com/

Ustwo · 01-30-2008, 05:41 PM

If we didn't put it in the water how would the ADA control your thoughts?

Charlatan · 01-30-2008, 05:53 PM

Sun Tzu · 01-30-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

If we didn't put it in the water how would the ADA control your thoughts?

Since you bring them up; you were probably aware the ADA stated in Nov. 2006: "To prevent dental fluorosis, infant formula for children under a year old should be prepared with purified, distilled, or reverse osmosis water, containing no fluoride." Why?

Pertaining to research in this area, what organization is considered credable?

Your answer suggests to me that the National Academy of Sciences’ National Research Council is a fringe group offering no real conclusive data.

Ustwo · 01-30-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Since you bring them up; you were probably aware the ADA stated in Nov. 2006: "To prevent dental fluorosis, infant formula for children under a year old should be prepared with purified, distilled, or reverse osmosis water, containing no fluoride." Why?

Pertaining to research in this area, what organization is considered credable?

Your answer suggests to me that the National Academy of Sciences’ National Research Council is a fringe group offering no real conclusive data.

Which part of 'prevent fluorosis' didn't you get?

Do you know what it is?

Its how we discovered the anti-cavity effect in the first place and it has nothing to do with health its purely cosmetic.

Sun Tzu · 01-31-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Which part of 'prevent fluorosis' didn't you get?

Do you know what it is?

Its how we discovered the anti-cavity effect in the first place and it has nothing to do with health its purely cosmetic.

I certainly don't have the expertise that you do in this area; but all the definitions I found on it seem to point to the same theme. Discoloration resembling brown stains, etc, etc. Is an increase in porosity cosmetic? Is sounds like that can lead to chiping, breaking, and a general weakening. Besides fluorosis isnt limited to dental fluorosis. Ingesting a susbstance has systemic effects not just localized. Is it your stance that a child with dental fluorosis shouldnt have fluoride levels checked, and a possible rule out of skeletal fluorosis?

Do you find the link many professionals (dentists and doctors- articles not hard to find) are finding from fluoride to cancer to be unfounded?

Theres no reason to have the shit in the water supply. I understand your mindset on youtube videos. Theres good information out there and bad information. Are you saying that the information the dentist is presenting in the first video is bullshit?

SecretMethod70 · 01-31-2008, 12:21 AM

I read an interesting article about Fluoride in Scientific American a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, the whole article isn't available for free, but the first few paragraphs are available for the general idea: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ts-on-fluoride

I don't think this is an urgent crisis or anything, but it seems recent research warrents thinking twice about fluoridation.

Ustwo · 01-31-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

I read an interesting article about Fluoride in Scientific American a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, the whole article isn't available for free, but the first few paragraphs are available for the general idea: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ts-on-fluoride

I don't think this is an urgent crisis or anything, but it seems recent research warrents thinking twice about fluoridation.

You can get too much fluoride if you are getting it from multiple sources, like anything there is a upper limit on the dose. Thats a far cry from calling it harmful. I stopped getting Scientific American a few years ago when it started to go down hill (it used to be pretty good, I still pick one up time to time), so I can't see more than your teaser either, which says, well nothing.

The funny thing is the dentists, who are the ones dealing with this every day and understand its value, would have the most to gain if its removed from the water, yet only the nutballs are in the anti-fluoride camp.

Sun Tzu · 01-31-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You can get too much fluoride if you are getting it from multiple sources, like anything there is a upper limit on the dose. Thats a far cry from calling it harmful. I stopped getting Scientific American a few years ago when it started to go down hill (it used to be pretty good, I still pick one up time to time), so I can't see more than your teaser either, which says, well nothing.

The funny thing is the dentists, who are the ones dealing with this every day and understand its value, would have the most to gain if its removed from the water, yet only the nutballs are in the anti-fluoride camp.

I just want to be clear, you are stating any doctor or dentist the promote the halting of community fluorination is a nutball, or IYO- right? Including the dentist on the first video- he would classify as a nutball in your book.

Jinn · 01-31-2008, 09:10 AM

This thread has confused the hell out of me...

Is flouride a bad thing?

Ustwo · 01-31-2008, 11:02 AM

Yes its awful.

And I want a new boat.

The two are related

Sun Tzu · 01-31-2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yes its awful.

And I want a new boat.

The two are related

Is that your indirect way of answering a straight forward question? The professional of thirty years in the field with an additional Masters in Public Health is a prime example of what you would consider a "nutball" because of the research he finds in community fluorination to be accurate?

You do know the ADA has conflicting statements about the subject, right?

However, I understand that regardless of how many professionals and experts validate data showing the harmful effects as long as the CDC says its OK, thats where it ends. Which brings me back to the original question? While I should laugh- I dont think it is a conspiracy of the League of Evil Dentists bent on national mind control.

Willravel · 01-31-2008, 11:18 AM

I hate typing fluoride because I always want to spell it "flouride". It pisses me off.

Anyway, fluoride is quite simply too prevalent in foods, milk and juices to warrant inclusion in drinking water. Have a bowl of cereal with milk and a coke, and suddenly you've gotten 230% of your fluoride for the day. So why do we need it in our water?

Well the answer is simple. Outdated pseudoscience. From the UK's DoH, peer reviewed study of water fluoridation:

Quote:

We were unable to discover any reliable good-quality evidence in the fluoridation literature world-wide.
What evidence we found suggested that water fluoridation was likely to have a beneficial effect, but that the range could be anywhere from a substantial benefit to a slight disbenefit to children's teeth.
This beneficial effect comes at the expense of an increase in the prevalence of fluorosis (mottled teeth). The quality of this evidence was poor.
An association with water fluoride and other adverse effects such as cancer, bone fracture and Down's syndrome was not found. However, we felt that not enough was known because the quality of the evidence was poor.
The evidence about reducing inequalities in dental health was of poor quality, contradictory and unreliable.
Since the report was published in October 2000 there has been no other scientifically defensible review that would alter the findings of the York review. As emphasised in the report, only high-quality studies can fill in the gaps in knowledge about these and other aspects of fluoridation. Recourse to other evidence of a similar or lower level than that included in the York review, no matter how copious, cannot do this.

I get all my fluoride from tea and organic milk.

Ustwo · 01-31-2008, 11:28 AM

Let me get this straight.

You just cited the UK DoH on dentistry?

I'll add that little bit says absolutely nothing important.

Willravel · 01-31-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Let me get this straight.

You just cited the UK DoH on dentistry?

I'll add that little bit says absolutely nothing important.

It's hard to find a peer reviewed study on fluoride, because there are almost none available. The FACT is that you probably get plenty in your diet, and there is no real evidence to suggest that fluoride in water helps anyone. It's a joke, and moreover it's essentially forcing medicine on people. To me it seems a massive waste of time and money.

Ustwo · 01-31-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It's hard to find a peer reviewed study on fluoride, because there are almost none available. The FACT is that you probably get plenty in your diet, and there is no real evidence to suggest that fluoride in water helps anyone. It's a joke, and moreover it's essentially forcing medicine on people. To me it seems a massive waste of time and money.

In that case why would the carries rate be lower in areas with fluoridated water?

I think the problem is you can't easily google a study on it, but they are out there, most were done prior to everything on the net.

Willravel · 01-31-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

In that case why would the carries rate be lower in areas with fluoridated water?

Link? And actually this would run contrary to reason. Fluoride works when it is applied topically (toothpaste, rinses), but there's no evidence (aside from outdated pseudoscience) to suggest that fluoride helps teeth when ingested.

"...laboratory and epidemiologic research suggests that fluoride prevents dental caries predominately after eruption of the tooth into the mouth, and its actions primarily are topical for both adults and children" (CDC, 1999, MMWR 48: 933-940).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I think the problem is you can't easily google a study on it, but they are out there, most were done prior to everything on the net.

Studies done in the 1940s and 50s are now outdated because they were done before any long term testing could be done to see the effects of water fluoridation.

Ustwo · 01-31-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Link? And actually this would run contrary to reason. Fluoride works when it is applied topically (toothpaste, rinses), but there's no evidence (aside from outdated pseudoscience) to suggest that fluoride helps teeth when ingested.

"...laboratory and epidemiologic research suggests that fluoride prevents dental caries predominately after eruption of the tooth into the mouth, and its actions primarily are topical for both adults and children" (CDC, 1999, MMWR 48: 933-940).

And you get it from your organic milk...right.....

But anyways, I'll trust the California Dental Association, the American Dental Association, The American Medical Association, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the US Public Health Service and the World Health Organization on this one.

Quote:

Studies done in the 1940s and 50s are now outdated because they were done before any long term testing could be done to see the effects of water fluoridation.

70's, 80's, most of the 90's don't count?

Will I'm sorry but redoing a study so you can easily google it, isn't worth public funds.

Willravel · 01-31-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

And you get it from your organic milk...right.....

But anyways, I'll trust the California Dental Association, the American Dental Association, The American Medical Association, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the US Public Health Service and the World Health Organization on this one.

Because they've said... what? When they do say something, they cite the studies done before my parents were born. It's a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

70's, 80's, most of the 90's don't count?

Will I'm sorry but redoing a study so you can easily google it, isn't worth public funds.

For shame. You didn't even bother doing research. There aren't really any studies of merit in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, cept for the UK study I listed above, of course.

sapiens · 01-31-2008, 01:49 PM

Regarding the OP, that's why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol.

(Even though Charlatan beat me to it, I couldn't help myself).

I'm curious about research on either side of the issue. Just because a study was done before 1970, does not make automatically make it invalid. People in memory research still cite Ebbinghaus (1885).

Also, there are many, many, many studies on community water fluoridation done every year. I don't have the time or energy to read them, but a quick search of medline revealed quite a few. (Maybe a couple of hundred since 2005). The consensus does appear to be that fluoridation does reduce caries.

Quote:

Armfield, J M; Spencer, A J Community effectiveness of fissure sealants and the effect of fluoridated water consumption. Community Dent Health 24 (1) : 4-11 2007 Mar

The reduction in caries increment attributable to fissure sealing increased across fluoridated water exposure categories--a 36.4% reduction was found for children with 0% exposure (p > 0.05), a 55.0% reduction for children with intermediate exposure (p < 0.01), and an 82.4% reduction for children with 100% lifetime exposure to fluoridated water (p < 0.001).

Here's an abstract from a position paper by the American Dietetic Association in 2005.

Quote:

Palmer, Carole; Wolfe, Stanton H
Position of the American Dietetic Association: the impact of fluoride on health.
J Am Diet Assoc 105 (10) : 1620-8 2005 Oct

Abstract: The American Dietetic Association reaffirms that fluoride is an important element for all mineralized tissues in the body. Appropriate fluoride exposure and usage is beneficial to bone and tooth integrity and, as such, has an important, positive impact on oral health as well as general health throughout life. Fluoride is an important element in the mineralization of bone and teeth. The proper use of topical and systemic fluoride has resulted in major reductions in dental caries (tooth decay) and its associated disability. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have named fluoridation of water as one of the 10 most important public health measures of the 20th century. Nearly 100 national and international organizations recognize the public health benefits of community water fluoridation for preventing dental caries. However, by the year 2000, over one third of the US population (over 100 million people) were still without this critical public health measure. Fluoride also plays a role in bone health. However, the use of high doses of fluoride for prevention of osteoporosis is considered experimental at this point. Dietetics professionals should routinely monitor and promote the use of systemic and topical fluorides, especially in children and adolescents. The American Dietetic Association strongly reaffirms its endorsement of the appropriate use of systemic and topical fluorides, including water fluoridation, at appropriate levels as an important public health measure throughout the life span.

Willravel · 01-31-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palmer, Carole; Wolfe, Stanton H

The proper use of topical and systemic fluoride has resulted in major reductions in dental caries (tooth decay) and its associated disability.

Are you aware of any research that specifically looks at the systemic use of fluoride, or any research that compares systemic to topical use? By my understanding, the use of fluoride by ingestion (in comparison to it's use topically) reduces it's effectiveness considerably.

In addition to that, as I posted above, so far as ingestion of fluoride, we get plenty in our diets already. Processed cereals, juice, soda, tea, wine, beer, fish, infant formula, and (fluorinated) salt all provide a ton of fluoride. The recommended daily intake of fluorine (fluoride) is like 3.5 mg. One cup of tea or one serving of shellfish usually is many times the daily amount. I remember reading a Canadian study a few years back that said the average tea has 4.57 mg/l fluoride. And I like mine dark.

Ustwo · 01-31-2008, 02:25 PM

will based on your past, I'd be willing to say no study or expert will ever be enough for you to change your mind on something once its made up.

01-30-2008, 05:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Event Horizon	Fluoride: Drinking, Showering, and Brushing with Poison When a person has the choice to purchase toothpaste with or without fluoride seems like a fair practice. Similar to cigarettes, if a person decides to undertake a habit that increases the risk of contracting serious health problems, its their choice to do so. Unless a large portion of the population decides to use a filter on their shower head and buy bottled water; they are begin dosed with levels of fluoride that are questionably toxic. The CDC promotes community fluoridation as safe. After a minor amount of research I found irony in the fact it was much easier for me to find information on fluoride being harmful than dangerous. If in fact the additional fluoride we receive from water (also in a lot of foods and carbonated beverages) is harmful, then why is the CDC promoting it? <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_Ys9q1cvKGk&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_Ys9q1cvKGk&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gBmVY8lUcXg&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gBmVY8lUcXg&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KOJ0hhla0WA&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KOJ0hhla0WA&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> I found this to be an interesting site. While its intentions are obvious, the collection of information has a wide span. www.nofluoride.com/ __________________ *None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Johann Wolfgang Goethe* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 01-30-2008 at 05:34 PM.

01-30-2008, 05:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	If we didn't put it in the water how would the ADA control your thoughts? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-30-2008, 05:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
Charlatan Drinking Your Milkshake Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lion City	<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N1KvgtEnABY&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N1KvgtEnABY&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> __________________ “I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization.” - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

01-31-2008, 12:21 AM	#7 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Learning Administrator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago	I read an interesting article about Fluoride in Scientific American a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, the whole article isn't available for free, but the first few paragraphs are available for the general idea: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ts-on-fluoride I don't think this is an urgent crisis or anything, but it seems recent research warrents thinking twice about fluoridation. __________________ Watch as the internet implodes!: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/found-n...-implodes.html Last edited by SecretMethod70; 01-31-2008 at 12:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

01-31-2008, 09:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Join Date: May 2005	This thread has confused the hell out of me... Is flouride a bad thing? __________________ If you struggle with something your entire life, try harder. Awareness without action is worthless, and failure is not an accident.

01-31-2008, 11:02 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	Yes its awful. And I want a new boat. The two are related __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-31-2008, 11:28 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	Let me get this straight. You just cited the UK DoH on dentistry? I'll add that little bit says absolutely nothing important. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-31-2008, 02:25 PM	#22 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	will based on your past, I'd be willing to say no study or expert will ever be enough for you to change your mind on something once its made up. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.