Are You Prepared for the Worst? - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Sun Tzu · 03-11-2008, 01:21 AM

This thread was inspired by another that willravel created located in Tilted Knowledge titled Tilted Armageddon. If you haven’t read through that one, it’s worth a visit. This one is approached in a different way. I have a side passion, that many of my friends think is a bit odd or paranoid as some call it. For the last ten years I have been allotting a portion of investment into preparing for surviving a collapse of society as we now know it. Really up until the last two years it has just been more of buying supplies and putting them into storage. I’m almost out of room with a need to expand. What I currently have is:

* enough MREs (meals ready to eat) to feed six people for 4-5 years

* a large supply of drinking water, will invest in a filtration system soon

* a full array of medical supplies- various antibiotics, a complete spectrum of other medications, minor surgery materials including analgesics such as lidocane with and without epi, various emergency medical equipment, an automatic defibrillator, the list goes on and on. Basically, a small ER. Some of the medications will expire as time goes on. I usually stock up whenever I go to Mexico. Even if the meds do expired, something is better than nothing.

* 4 sets of MOP gear including gas masks

* Dosimeters, survey meter, ten boxes of potassium iodide

* Two books of M9 and M8 paper, M256A1 kit, and an anthrax SMART kit – that covers most of the chemical and biological spectrum

* An armory in which I won’t go into details

My next investment is going to be the largest. Here’s where friends and family view me as wasting my money. I’m having an underground shelter constructed, it has taken me about three years to fully research what I want as far as layout, sanitation, air and water filtration, level of NBC protection, level of tectonic protection, access points, and overall space. If I had enough money I would save a lot of time and purchase an abandoned missile silo the government sells, but the price tag is way out of range.

The location was the final element. I have land in Montana; which at first seemed ideal. It is on the continental divide and very secluded. The problem is in the event of a nuclear war that area is going to get hit harder than most of the states. Not to mention Yellowstone, although that wasn’t a big concern.

The area I live in now; Arizona I found to be pretty much ideal for numerous reasons and threats both manmade and by nature. Arizona’s main issues will be water and food, not counting a direct meteor hit.

I have thoroughly reviewed FEMA’s website and Arizona’s DEMA website. Both actually offer online courses for free that most colleges accept as credits toward and emergency management science degree. Your state DEMA website has a wealth of information on what to do should the “shit hit the fan” in any one of the numerous ways it can.

I have friends that see this as over the top, but I also am in a network of individuals I would call peers more than friends that are all doing the same thing.

There are multiple events that can happen that would disrupt society as we know it on a grand scale. I’ll eliminate the least likely first: asteroid impact, gamma ray burst, giant super solar flare, magnetic pole reversal, mage volcano eruption like Yellowstone for example, a natural global epidemic, biotech disasters, and technology based disasters such as the concern over Y2K.

The next set events I classify as possible. These are the one’s I am curious how others view here. I’m not really referring to whether you believe they will happen or not. They are possible enough for to prepare for, even if they are unlikely. Through everything I hope they never happen. If I go through life having invested and prepared for situations driven by paranoia, and that’s all they were, believe me when I say that is not a bad thing.

Any kind of collapse of society that renders us into a scenario like the movies: The Postman, Road Warrior, Red Dawn, and similar. A full blown or even limited nuclear war, a total collapse of our economy where those without precious metals are totally fu**ed, martial law gone out of control on a national level, a man made-virus unleashed intentionally or accidently, etc.

Some of my friends that view me as obsessed state they wouldn’t want to survive if things go bad.

Would anyone here want to survive catastrophes mentioned above? If, not does that mean you would kill yourself if your survived the initial causes?

If you didn’t want to survive and you have a family, does that mean you wouldn’t want your family to survive?

What would you do if something biological happened on a grand scale and the antibiotics or antidote became scarce- and someone you love needed it or would suffer and die, what would you do?

Is anyone else prepared for the worse here? I understand having the mindset of whatever happens; happens and there is nothing I can do about it. That may be true, but if the worst does happen do you have any kind of action plan for food, medicine, shelter, etc. Consider where your current state of preparedness is right at this moment. If something happened there would be panic in the streets. Highways would become filled, stores looted, and mass panic. If the stages of martial law broke down, the lower ranks of the military could fall apart as they become concerned for their families, form there anything is possible.

If these events are unlikely, is it a waste of time for the government to be prepared? When I referred to being prepared, I mean a refuge for a select few to have and survive on. Meet Mount Weather: you should after all you are helping pay for it.

Quote:

Few Americans--indeed, few Congressional reps--are aware of the existence of Mount Weather, a mysterious underground military base carved deep inside a mountain near the sleepy rural town of Bluemont, Virginia, just 46 miles from Washington DC. Mount Weather --also known as the Western Virginia Office of Controlled Conflict Operations--is buried not just in hard granite, but in secrecy as well.

In March, 1976, The Progressive Magazine published an astonishing article entitled The Mysterious Mountain. The author, Richard Pollock, based his investigative report on Senate subcommittee hearings and upon "several off-the-record interviews with officials formerly associated with Mount Weather." His report, and a 1991 article in Time Magazine entitled Doomsday Hideaway, supply a few compelling hints about what is going on underground.

Ted Gup, writing for Time, describes the base as follows: "Mount Weather is a virtually self-contained facility. Above ground, scattered across manicured lawns, are about a dozen buildings bristling with antennas and microwave relay systems. An on-site sewage-treatment plant, with a 90,000 gal.-a-day capacity, and two tanks holding 250,000 gal. of water could last some 200 people more than a month; underground ponds hold additional water supplies. Not far from the installation's entry gate are a control tower and a helicopter pad. The mountain's real secrets are not visible at ground level."

The mountain's "real secrets" are protected by warning signs, 10 foot-high chain link fences, razor wire, and armed guards. Curious motorists and hikers on the Appalachian trail are relieved of their sketching pads and cameras and sent on their way. Security is tight.

The government has owned the site since 1903; it has seen service as an artillery range, a hobo farm during the Depression, and a National Weather Bureau Facility. In 1936, the U.S. Bureau of Mines took control and started digging.

Mount Weather is virtually an underground city, according to former personnel interviewed by Pollock. Buried deep inside the earth, Mount Weather was equipped with such amenities as:
- private apartments and dormitories
- streets and sidewalks
- cafeterias and hospitals
- a water purification system, power plant and general office buildings
- a small lake fed by fresh water from underground springs - a transit system
- a TV communication system
Mount Weather is the self-sustaining underground command center for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). The facility is the operational center - the hub - of approximately 100 other Federal Relocation Centers, most of which are concentrated in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland and North Carolina. Together this network of underground facilities constitutes the backbone of America's "Continuity of Government" program. In the event of nuclear war, declaration of martial law, or other national emergency, the President, his cabinet and the rest of the Executive Branch would be "relocated" to Mount Weather.

What Does Congress Know about Mount Weather?

According to the Senate Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights hearings in 1975, Congress has almost no knowledge and no oversight --budgetary or otherwise--on Mount Weather. Retired Air Force General Leslie W. Bray, in his testimony to the subcommittee, said "I am not at liberty to describe precisely what is the role and the mission and the capability that we have at Mount Weather, or at any other precise location."
A
pparently, this underground capital of the United States is a secret only to Congress and the US taxpayers who paid for it. The Russians know about it, as reported in Time: "Few in the U.S. government will speak of it, though it is assumed that all along the Soviets have known both its precise location and its mission (unlike the Congress, since Bray wouldn't tell); defense experts take it as a given that the site is on the Kremlin's targeting maps. " The Russians attempted to buy real estate right next door, as a "country estate" for their embassy folks, but that deal was dead- ended by the State Department.

Mount Weather's "Government-in-Waiting":

Pollock's report, based on his interviews with former officials at Mount Weather, contains astounding information on the base's personnel. The underground city contains a parallel government-in-waiting: "High- level Governmental sources, speaking in the promise of strictest anonymity, told me [Pollock] that each of the Federal departments represented at Mount Weather is headed by a single person on whom is conferred the rank of a Cabinet-level official. Protocol ven demands that subordinates address them as 'Mr. Secretary.' Each of the Mount Weather 'Cabinet members' is apparently appointed by the White House and serves an indefinite term ... many through several Administrations. The facility attempts to duplicate the vital functions of the Executive branch of the Administration."
Nine Federal departments are replicated within Mount Weather (Agriculture; Commerce; Health, Education & Welfare; Housing & Urban Development; Interior; Labor; State; Transportation; and Treasurey) as well as at least five Federal agencies (Federal Communications Commission, Selective Service, Federal Power Commission, Civil Service Commission, and the Veterans Administration). The Federal Reserve and the U.S. Post Office, both private corporations, also have offices in Mount Weather.

Pollock writes that the "cabinet members" are "apparently" appointed by the White House and serve an indefinite term, but that information cannot be confirmed, raising the further question of who holds the reins on this "back-up government." Furthermore, appointed Mount Weather officials hold their positions through several elected administrations, transcending the time their appointers spend in office. Unlike other presidential nominees, these appointments are made without the public advice or consent of the Senate.
Is there an alternative President and Vice President as well? If so, who appoints them? Pollock says only this: "As might be expected, there is also an Office of the Presidency at Mount Weather. The Federal Preparedness Agency (precursor to FEMA) apparently appoints a special staff to the Presidential section, which regularly receives top secret national security estimates and raw data from each of the Federal departments and agencies.

What Do They Do At Mount Weather?

1) Collect Data on American Citizens
The Senate Subcommittee in 1975 learned that the "facility held dossiers on at least 100,000 Americans. [Senator] John Tunney later alleged that the Mount Weather computers can obtain millions of pieces of additional information on the personal lives of American citizens simply by tapping the data stored at any of the other ninety-six Federal Relocation Centers."
The subcommittee concluded that Mount Weather's databases "operate with few, if any, safeguards or guidelines."

2) Store Necessary Information
The Progressive article detailed that "General Bray gave Tunney's subcommittee a list of the categories of files maintained at Mount Weather: military installations, government facilities, communications, transportation, energy and power, agriculture, manufacturing, wholesale and retail services, manpower, financial, medical and educational institutions, sanitary facilities, population, housing shelter, and stockpiles." This massive database fits cleanly into Mount Weather's ultimate purpose as the command center in the event of a national emergency.

3) Play War Games
This is the main daily activity of the approximately 240 people who work at Mount Weather. The games are intended to train the Mount Weather bureaucracy to managing a wide range of problems associated with both war and domestic political crises.
Decisions are made in the "Situation Room," the base's nerve center, located in the core of Mount Weather.
The Situation Room is the archetypal war room, with "charts, maps and whatever visuals may be needed" and "batteries of communications equipment connecting Mount Weather with the White House and 'Raven Rock'-- the underground Pentagon sixty miles north of Washington--as well as with almost every US military unit stationed around the globe," according to the Progressive article. "All internal communications are conducted by closed-circuit color television ... senior officers and 'Cabinet members' have two consoles recessed in the walls of their office."
Descriptions of the war games read a bit like a Ian Fleming novel. Every year there is a system-wide alert that "includes all military and civilian-run underground installations." The real, aboveground President and his Cabinet members are "relocated" to Mount Weather to observe the simulation. Post-mortems are conducted and the margins for error are calculated after the games. All the data is studied and documented.

4) Civil Crisis Management
Mount Weather personnel study more than war scenarios. Domestic "crises" are also tracked and watched, and there have been times when Mount Weather almost swung into action, as Pollock reported: "Officials who were at Mount Weather during the 1960s say the complex was actually prepared to assume certain governmental powers at the time of the 1961 Cuban missile crisis and the assassination of President Kennedy in 1963. The installation used the tools of its 'Civil Crisis Management' program on a standby basis during the 1967 and 1968 urban riots and during a number of national antiwar demonstrations, the sources said."
In its 1974 Annual Report, the Federal Preparedness Agency stated that "Studies conducted at Mount Weather involve the control and management of domestic political unrest where there are material shortages (such as food riots) or in strike situations where the FPA determines that there are industrial disruptions and other domestic resource crises."
The Mount Weather facility uses a vast array of resources to continually monitor the American people. According to Daniel J. Cronin, former assistant director for the FPA, Reconnaissance satellites, local and state police intelligence reports, and Federal law enforcement agencies are just a few of the resources available to the FPA [now FEMA] for information gathering. "We try to monitor situations and get to them before they become emergencies," Cronin said. "No expense is spared in the monitoring program."

5) Maintain and Update the "Survivors List"
Using all the data generated by the war games and domestic crisis scenarios, the facility continually maintains and updates a list of names and addresses of people deemed to be "vital" to the survival of the nation, or who can "assist essential and non-interruptible services." In the 1976 article, the "survivors list" contained 6,500 names, but even that was deemed to be low. Who Pays for All This, and How Much?
At the same time tens of millions of dollars were being spent on maintaining and upgrading the complex to protect several hundred designated officials in the event of nuclear attack, the US government drastically reduced its emphasis on war preparedness for US citizens. A 1989 FEMA brochure entitled "Are You Prepared?" suggests that citizens construct makeshift fallout shelters using used furniture, books, and other common household items.
Officially, Mount Weather (and its budget) does not exist. FEMA refuses to answer inquiries about the facility; as FEMA spokesman Bob Blair told Time magazine, "I'll be glad to tell you all about it, but I'd have to kill you afterward."

We don't know how much Mount Weather has cost over the years, but of course, American taxpayers bear this burden as well. A Christian Science Monitor article entitled "Study Reveals US Has Spent $4 Trillion on Nukes Since '45" reports that "The government devoted at least $12 billion to civil defense projects to protect the population from nuclear attack. But billions of dollars more were secretly spent on vast underground complexes from which civilian and military officials would run the government during a nuclear war." What is Mount Weather's Ultimate Purpose?
We have seen that Mount Weather contains an unelected, parallel "government-in-waiting" ready to take control of the United States upon word from the President or his successor. The facility contains a massive database of information on U.S. citizens which is operated with no safeguards or accountability. Ostensibly, this expensive hub of America's network of sub-terrain bases was designed to preserve our form of government during a nuclear holocaust.
But Mount Weather is not simply a Cold War holdover. Information on command and control strategies during national emergencies have largely been withheld from the American public. Executive Order 11051, signed by President Kennedy on October 2, 1962, states that "national preparedness must be achieved... as may be required to deal with increases in international tension with limited war, or with general war including attack upon the United States."

However, Executive Order 11490, drafted by Gen. George A Lincoln (former director for the Office of Emergency Preparedness, the FPA's predecessor) and signed by President Nixon in October 1969, tells a different story. EO 11490, which superseded Kennedy's EO 11051, begins, "Whereas our national security is dependent upon our ability to assure continuity of government, at every level, in any national emergency type situation that might conceivably confront the nation."
As researcher late William Cooper points out, Nixon's order makes no reference to "war," "imminent attack," or "general war." These quantifiers are replaced by an extremely vague "national emergency type situation" that "might conceivably" interfere with the workings of the national power structure. Furthermore, there is no publicly known Executive Order outlining the restoration of the Constitution after a national emergency has ended. Unless the parallel government at Mount Weather does not decide out of the goodness of its heart to return power to Constitutional authority, the United States could experience an honest-to-God coup d'etat posing as a national emergency.

Like the enigmatic Area 51 in Nevada, the Federal government wants to keep the Mount Weather facility buried in secrecy. Public awareness of this place and its purpose would raise serious questions about who holds the reins of power in this country. The Constitution states that those reins lie in the hands of the people, but the very existence of Mount Weather indicates an entirely different reality. As long as Mount Weather exists, these questions will remain.

The Chinese and Russians have been busy constructing similar cities.

I’ll conclude with questions which aren’t meant to be offensive:

Are you prepared for the worst?

If not, do you care to be?

If you don’t care to be, do you think there is going to be an inevitable salvation granted by a supernatural being, and such preparation is a waste?

If you don’t care to be, do you think that we as a global population will eventually get our act together, and socially evolve into a Star Trek like society?

If you don’t care to be, do you think that we will continue from where we are today on an international level, “terrorism” will be defeated, China will turn into a Republic form of democracy, the Israel/Palestine issue will resolve itself and the will be a unified peace in the middle east, everyone will learn to accept each others religious beliefs, the US dollar completely recovers from its decline and all debt is wiped clean, the world discovers a plentiful, clean source of energy, all tension from territorial disagreements are effectively solved in the UN, your political views survive because they make the most sense. I don’t know where such a scenario would end or where the world would go from there, except trying to solve overpopulation.

If this is all over the top, what is your primary reason for not feeling the need for extended disaster preparation?

Do you see yourself as a person that would capitalize on opportunities of obtaining power if society was thrown feudal. In other words would you turn into a war lord and exploit the weaker ones for self survival?

Lastly, if your views are a desire not to survive, have you thought about you loved ones and what you would do if they lived but looked toward you to protect them?

Redlemon · 03-11-2008, 09:09 AM

To me, it is all about (the cost of preparing for the event in question) divided by (the probability of the event occurring). In my opinion, that number is too large to be worth my time. I don't play the lottery for the same reason.

Jinn · 03-11-2008, 09:32 AM

I certainly would feel terrible about having a SO die because I wasn't prepared with the correct medicines, as would I feel terrible about being so woefully unprepared. If I had the money to spare, I would certainly build a facility just like this.

But I too agree with Redlemon. Cost / Likelihood. I own a gun because I think that the liklihood of a home invasion robbery or aggravated assault are high enough that it justifies the cost in money, and (potential) cost in life to a would-be assailant.

I just don't find it likely enough that something this catastrophic will happen in my lifetime to justify taking money away from my more realistic, tangible, and short-term goals.

If I found myself much richer or the world less stable, I'd be in your shoes very quickly, and I do envy your planning.

One question that always plagues my mind, though, when I consider these "end of the world survival" scenarios is women. You've got the food, the shelter, the protection and medicine to potentially last months. But what are you going to do for your more .. animalistic.. needs? Furthermore, should you be the last surviving "group" of humans, would you be prepared to begin the species again?

Also, what are you going to do offset cave insanity and boredom? Are you stocking books, games, etc?

Cynthetiq · 03-11-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

To me, it is all about (the cost of preparing for the event in question) divided by (the probability of the event occurring). In my opinion, that number is too large to be worth my time. I don't play the lottery for the same reason.

call me a dittohead word for word.

Willravel · 03-11-2008, 11:54 AM

Jeez that's a big post.

I have a bomb shelter with enough canned food to last me and another person for about 5 years *can opener breaks*... no, that's not fair. That's not fair at all. There was time now.

QuasiMondo · 03-11-2008, 12:55 PM

Why would anybody want to live through the apocalypse? The world is already fucked by then.

Ustwo · 03-11-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuasiMondo

Why would anybody want to live through the apocalypse? The world is already fucked by then.

I can imagine surviving in a world without musical dinner theater and the internet.

Being in a major population center, odds are famine will be the real killer, so if you could, when you decide to end it all, let me know so I can pick up the carcass.

QuasiMondo · 03-11-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I can imagine surviving in a world without musical dinner theater and the internet.

Being in a major population center, odds are famine will be the real killer, so if you could, when you decide to end it all, let me know so I can pick up the carcass.

How will I do that with no internet and no TFP?

Sun Tzu · 03-11-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I certainly would feel terrible about having a SO die because I wasn't prepared with the correct medicines, as would I feel terrible about being so woefully unprepared. If I had the money to spare, I would certainly build a facility just like this.

But I too agree with Redlemon. Cost / Likelihood. I own a gun because I think that the liklihood of a home invasion robbery or aggravated assault are high enough that it justifies the cost in money, and (potential) cost in life to a would-be assailant.

I just don't find it likely enough that something this catastrophic will happen in my lifetime to justify taking money away from my more realistic, tangible, and short-term goals.

If I found myself much richer or the world less stable, I'd be in your shoes very quickly, and I do envy your planning.

One question that always plagues my mind, though, when I consider these "end of the world survival" scenarios is women. You've got the food, the shelter, the protection and medicine to potentially last months. But what are you going to do for your more .. animalistic.. needs? Furthermore, should you be the last surviving "group" of humans, would you be prepared to begin the species again?

Also, what are you going to do offset cave insanity and boredom? Are you stocking books, games, etc?

I remember about 3 years ago there was a gas shortage in Arizona. For about 22 days you couldnt find any gas anywhere. When a station would happen to get a tanker drop a load, people swarmed in like vultures. Arguments, fist fights, price gauging, even fuel theft. There is no doubt in my mind had that been 3 months things would have turned very ugly. It truly wasnt a huge deal obviously everyone survived, life went on. It was however, a small taste- a very small taste of the feeling of helplessness and out of control that enters when the the everyday routine and elements that found that routine are taken away. I can only image if there were suddenly another gas crisis like in the 70s, combine that with some sort of outbreak, image not being able to get gas or medical supplies. Every hospital you go to is full past capacity, and every perso you run into or encounter has the same thing on their mind protecting their family. As I watched a fight directly in front of my car as I was waiting in a line for 4 hours for gas, it amazed me how easy people will go into survival mode. Its kind of disturbing how fast and easy society could break down.

The investment in this has been over a long period. Its not something I woke up ast week and decide to do, although I wouldnt mind being that wealthy.

If something were to happen I know with great certainty, I would not belong to a group that would be the last humans. The people that DO have the wealth, elites that we are all familiar with and a lot we arent are very prepared. As I stated ealier, its not a pleasant thought knowing that a portion of our tax dollars has gone to the construction of a facility that will shelter and feed a select group of 100,000 people. Im sure there are more than that. As far as the other things you brought up, I havent thought that far. Like I said I hope I live my life without ever having to taste the ultimate nightmare. Its my hope that humanity does end up evolving into a Star Trek like society, where science and exploration of the cosmos is the general theme vs. war. If te worst did happen it is possible after examining whats left, how contaminated the Earth could possibly be, being confined for a long period of time, and other factors I possibly could decide I dont want to go any further, even with the family consideration. I just want that choice more than anything. I would not want the desire to survive only to be caught or even worse see my family caught in the events that will unfold if the worst happens.

I would recommend to go to your states DEMA website and at least skim over the wealth of information they have for the public. The have long and short courses over various elements specific too your area. Best of all its free. There is also http://www.fema.gov/ but i find state specific information far better.

onesnowyowl · 03-11-2008, 08:25 PM

Jeez, and I thought I was overly concerned...

I've been working, as time and money allow, on establishing a pantry. Given that I'm a poor college student, this is largely limited to canned and dry goods. At the high point, I probably had about six months of food. It's dwindling again, as we're moving in four months, and I don't want to have to haul my pantry to the next place. I'd say I have about two months of food at this point. It'll take me a couple months to rebuild the pantry after relocating, but that's acceptable.

I also live with two Eagle scouts who have plenty of backpacking and survival experience between the two of them. They also have a lot of survival gear.

For me, my more immediate concern is loss of power due to a windstorm than a nuclear catastrophe, and so I have planned towards that end. But I do hedge my bets with my pantry.

Greg700 · 03-12-2008, 12:59 AM

Since you seem to have the money for it, I would consider buying an old Diesel truck with no computer controlled electronics, and several hundred gallons of diesel. Afterall, you may need to flee your shelter or scavenge for materials you never expected to need.

Don't discount the importance of networking. It is almost impossible to be sustainable by yourself. Eventually you will have to become part of a group in order to survive, better to start talking with some of your nuttier friends about how things will work if society collapses. You don't necessarily need to tell them about your shelter, but you need to have a plan for mutual assistance, especially since you would likely have groups of desperate, starving people looking for anybody who has food.

Don't discount birthcontrol. If you have a wife and haven't stocked up on this you might find yourself tied down by a baby at the worst possible time. Besides, MRE's aren't exactly the best prenatal snacks in the world.

Speaking of MRE's, why have you stocked so heavily on MRE's instead of buying some MRE's and the rest nitrogen stabilized foodstuffs in large containers? It would be cheaper and far more appetizing.

Have you planned on any way to excercise in your underground shelter? If you are forced to stay underground for an extended period of time then presumably it is because the world above has been severely contaminated by something. As such, when your supplies run out (congratulations, you survived longer than most people) you will eventually be forced to move, possibly long distances on foot. Sitting in an underground shelter with no excercise for more than a year will put you in the worst shape of your life.

Even the most hardened shelter can be dug up and breached by a horde of desperate people...Plan using the shelter to temporarily shield you from radiation or chemical attacks, but plan on defending it from above ground.

Have you given thought to barter items like lanterns, pots, booze, weapons, etc? What about basic tools like shovels, axes, woodworking materials, etc.?

From the picture, it looks like you have a geiger counter that is calibrated for larger doses of radiation. It will tell you if you are about to die, but not if the food or water you are about to drink will slowly expose you to a lethal dose of radiation. It will tell you when you are in an area of very high radiation, but won't warn you as you approach early enough to avoid it.

Do you have a hand pump well? Even if you are relying on stored water, you should have a means of gathering more. Even if you don't need it right away it may become necessary if you have to irrigate or if you want some of your neighbors to survive.

What about communication? You should purchase a good HF radio (and learn how to make the antennas you will need) and a handheld scanner to monitor ICOM/CB traffic. People will be talking, maybe not right away, but eventually you will start to pick up traffic and you will get good info on conditions surrounding your location. A handcrank radio wouldn't hurt either, especially one that can pick up international broadcasts.

Do you have seeds stored? Heirloom Seeds (most seeds are sterilized...they will grow, but can't produce viable seeds for the next season) will be very important to anyone who is trying to reestablish food production. Even if your food needs are met via MRE's, long term a sustainable garden is probably going to be necessary, and seeds will be very necessary for restablishing a sustainable community. It is nice to not need anything, but if you are able to provide somewhat for the needs of those around you then they will be less likely to try to take what you have. Besides, you will run out of food eventually. You can either hope that society reestablishes itself by that time, or you can plan on helping it along.

Buy a ranger Handbook (fm 21-76). It won't make you a soldier, but it can open your eyes to a lot of the simple ways people hurt other people.

I don't think the MOPP gear will be very helpful. If you have an underground shelter then that should be where you wait out an attack. Even persistent chemical agents dissipate eventually...Stay underground and don't risk contaminating your shelter until it is safe to go outside unprotected again. MOPP gear really only lets soldier stay alive for a little while longer, and without a full blown chemical decontamination and atropine, MOPP gear won't keep you alive.

If you are worried about an outside invasion (afterall, why would another country nuke us if they are not going to lay claim to the territory they just won?) then you really need to get a few books detailing how to fight an insurgency. It won't be enough to put your head under the sand if we have an occupying force moving into our country.

Certain types of antibiotics eventually start to become toxic, and most see a dramatic decrease in effectiveness over time. Don't just assume that long expired antibiotics will work when you need them.

Do you have sutures, splints, catheters, etc?

And to answer your questions: I do consider myself prepared, though I don't have as many material resources stored up as you do, I have far more than most, and have a very good network of like minded friends, all of whom are extremely capable. If things went bad, I would not try to take power and extort people, but I would try to be an organizing force in the restoration of order. I know that as individuals, it is impossible to defend our homes/gardens/food stores, etc. against a determined (read desperate) group of attackers. People that might turn bad if left alone may instead be assets if they are given some guidance and help.

I am not talking about charity here, and I would not try to 'save' everybody, or even most people. However, I would do what I could to help a core group of friends and neighbors get through the disaster and restore a sustainable community. I have some unique materials and skills to offer a few nearby farmers who have more livestock than their land can support without imported hay.

The way I see it, one way or another people are going to organize. If you do not do the same then you will be squaring up against mobs of people alone.

I don't see a reason to take preparedness to the extreme...unless you have the disposable income to justify it (just like a good health insurance policy). I don't have a lot of extra money, and am not really prepared to weather a nuclear war or whatnot (I live right next to a huge military base), but I am very prepared to survive the sort of localized collapses that are more likely.

Greg

ASU2003 · 03-12-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I remember about 3 years ago there was a gas shortage in Arizona. For about 22 days you couldnt find any gas anywhere. When a station would happen to get a tanker drop a load, people swarmed in like vultures. Arguments, fist fights, price gauging, even fuel theft. There is no doubt in my mind had that been 3 months things would have turned very ugly. It truly wasnt a huge deal obviously everyone survived, life went on. It was however, a small taste- a very small taste of the feeling of helplessness and out of control that enters when the the everyday routine and elements that found that routine are taken away. I can only image if there were suddenly another gas crisis like in the 70s, combine that with some sort of outbreak, image not being able to get gas or medical supplies. Every hospital you go to is full past capacity, and every perso you run into or encounter has the same thing on their mind protecting their family. As I watched a fight directly in front of my car as I was waiting in a line for 4 hours for gas, it amazed me how easy people will go into survival mode. Its kind of disturbing how fast and easy society could break down.

I was in Phoenix during that gas shortage, but I rode my bike everywhere for a month.

Am I prepared, no. Would I like to be, yes. But there are a lot of problems in a lawless, anarcist, survival of the fittest world. You may be able to survive for three - six months in your shelter, but you better hope that no one else is desperate enough for food and water when emerge into the world again. I have no doubt that human society would break down into a hunter-scavenger type of population again.

Then there are the problems that you may never think about. National Geographic's show about a world with no humand made the point that nuclear reactors might meltdown, which would cover most of the currently populated areas with major radidation. Hopefully someone would shutdown the Palo Verde nuclear plant before it had a meltdown.

MSD · 03-14-2008, 09:42 AM

I don't have much stocked up. I have the guns and ammo to hunt the overgrown deer population around here for years, and I live close enough to water that I can get water for a while, too.

One thing to consider with MREs it that the caloric density is not as high as some other long-shelf-life foods, so if you have to get up and go, they'll take up more space than alternatives.

"Two one-megaton atomic bombs explode over New York City" from The Nuclear Winter by Carl Sagan, right?

Tully Mars · 03-14-2008, 11:45 AM

I live in an area steeped in Mayan culture. According to many the Maya have an end date built into their calendar. That date is December 21st, 2012 at 11:11 GMT. On the Mayan calendar known as the "long count" that date is presented by 13.0.0.0.0. For years it was believed that the Mayas believed this would be the end of the world as currently known. Recent studies and digs have revealed this is not at an accurate interpretation of 13.0.0.0.0. More likely it is simply that's when the calendar starts over, much like your cars odometer.

I have a few survival items I keep at the ready. I have no firearms as they are illegal here. I do have my compound hunting bow and a spear gun. I have a few cases of MRE's and basic items like water, gas, cooking fuel, tent, stove, lanterns, a chainsaw, lots of rope and a trauma bag of medical supplies. I keep these items in my cargo hitch box (it plugs into my towing hitch on my truck.)

Do I keep these items ready because I fear the end is near? No. Basically I have them with me because I drove across vast amounts of lonely desert to get here. I keep them ready because the landscape here is flat for miles and my house is less then a 100 yards to the beach. After getting here I mapped out on my GPS what I think will be the quickest route to higher ground, taking into account that I assume most major roads will be jammed. Basically I feel my main safety concern is from a possible tsunami, or more likely, a hurricane that raises the sea level dramatically.

Many people have forecast the end of times. So far, thankfully, all have been mistaken.

Manuel Hong · 03-19-2008, 05:51 PM

The best survival tool is knowledge of the natural world. Supplies run out, go bad or fail. Knowledge and connection to the Earth doesn't go away. Unless the Earth is left crippled beyond hope and the sky turns to blood and the ground to ash...in that case, I'd be relieved to die.
I can make fire, live off the land and I can identify plants for food, medicine and tools. As long as I can find myself in a natural environment, I may be alright...especially in a community. The WATER could be a problem! The way the world is being polluted, that may be the deal-breaker.
Let's hope we all get our shit together soon.

Sun Tzu · 03-19-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I live in an area steeped in Mayan culture. According to many the Maya have an end date built into their calendar. That date is December 21st, 2012 at 11:11 GMT. On the Mayan calendar known as the "long count" that date is presented by 13.0.0.0.0. For years it was believed that the Mayas believed this would be the end of the world as currently known. Recent studies and digs have revealed this is not at an accurate interpretation of 13.0.0.0.0. More likely it is simply that's when the calendar starts over, much like your cars odometer.

Thankks, thats interesting; something I havent heard (it being inaccurate).

03-11-2008, 09:09 AM	#2 (permalink)
Redlemon obsessive librarian Donor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New England	To me, it is all about (the cost of preparing for the event in question) divided by (the probability of the event occurring). In my opinion, that number is too large to be worth my time. I don't play the lottery for the same reason. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

03-11-2008, 09:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Join Date: May 2005	I certainly would feel terrible about having a SO die because I wasn't prepared with the correct medicines, as would I feel terrible about being so woefully unprepared. If I had the money to spare, I would certainly build a facility just like this. But I too agree with Redlemon. Cost / Likelihood. I own a gun because I think that the liklihood of a home invasion robbery or aggravated assault are high enough that it justifies the cost in money, and (potential) cost in life to a would-be assailant. I just don't find it likely enough that something this catastrophic will happen in my lifetime to justify taking money away from my more realistic, tangible, and short-term goals. If I found myself much richer or the world less stable, I'd be in your shoes very quickly, and I do envy your planning. One question that always plagues my mind, though, when I consider these "end of the world survival" scenarios is women. You've got the food, the shelter, the protection and medicine to potentially last months. But what are you going to do for your more .. animalistic.. needs? Furthermore, should you be the last surviving "group" of humans, would you be prepared to begin the species again? Also, what are you going to do offset cave insanity and boredom? Are you stocking books, games, etc? __________________ If you struggle with something your entire life, try harder. Awareness without action is worthless, and failure is not an accident.

03-11-2008, 11:54 AM	#5 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	Jeez that's a big post. I have a bomb shelter with enough canned food to last me and another person for about 5 years can opener breaks... no, that's not fair. That's not fair at all. There was time now. __________________ ɯǝɥʇ ǝʌlos uɐɔ ǝʍ ʇɐɥʇ ǝɔuɐɹouƃı ɥƃnoɹɥʇ ʇou sı ʇı 'sɯǝlqoɹd ǝʇɐǝɹɔ uɐɔ ǝƃpǝlʍouʞ ɟı

03-11-2008, 12:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Shhhhh...I'm lurking... Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Platonic Wastelands.	Why would anybody want to live through the apocalypse? The world is already fucked by then. __________________ "Like it or not, change has come. O.J. is in prison, and a black man is in the White House. Is everybody happy now?" -Tim Reid & Tom Dreesen

03-11-2008, 08:25 PM	#10 (permalink)
onesnowyowl feeling evil Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Corvallis, Oregon	Jeez, and I thought I was overly concerned... I've been working, as time and money allow, on establishing a pantry. Given that I'm a poor college student, this is largely limited to canned and dry goods. At the high point, I probably had about six months of food. It's dwindling again, as we're moving in four months, and I don't want to have to haul my pantry to the next place. I'd say I have about two months of food at this point. It'll take me a couple months to rebuild the pantry after relocating, but that's acceptable. I also live with two Eagle scouts who have plenty of backpacking and survival experience between the two of them. They also have a lot of survival gear. For me, my more immediate concern is loss of power due to a windstorm than a nuclear catastrophe, and so I have planned towards that end. But I do hedge my bets with my pantry. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

03-12-2008, 12:59 AM	#11 (permalink)
Greg700 Eccentric insomniac Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Fayetteville, NC	Since you seem to have the money for it, I would consider buying an old Diesel truck with no computer controlled electronics, and several hundred gallons of diesel. Afterall, you may need to flee your shelter or scavenge for materials you never expected to need. Don't discount the importance of networking. It is almost impossible to be sustainable by yourself. Eventually you will have to become part of a group in order to survive, better to start talking with some of your nuttier friends about how things will work if society collapses. You don't necessarily need to tell them about your shelter, but you need to have a plan for mutual assistance, especially since you would likely have groups of desperate, starving people looking for anybody who has food. Don't discount birthcontrol. If you have a wife and haven't stocked up on this you might find yourself tied down by a baby at the worst possible time. Besides, MRE's aren't exactly the best prenatal snacks in the world. Speaking of MRE's, why have you stocked so heavily on MRE's instead of buying some MRE's and the rest nitrogen stabilized foodstuffs in large containers? It would be cheaper and far more appetizing. Have you planned on any way to excercise in your underground shelter? If you are forced to stay underground for an extended period of time then presumably it is because the world above has been severely contaminated by something. As such, when your supplies run out (congratulations, you survived longer than most people) you will eventually be forced to move, possibly long distances on foot. Sitting in an underground shelter with no excercise for more than a year will put you in the worst shape of your life. Even the most hardened shelter can be dug up and breached by a horde of desperate people...Plan using the shelter to temporarily shield you from radiation or chemical attacks, but plan on defending it from above ground. Have you given thought to barter items like lanterns, pots, booze, weapons, etc? What about basic tools like shovels, axes, woodworking materials, etc.? From the picture, it looks like you have a geiger counter that is calibrated for larger doses of radiation. It will tell you if you are about to die, but not if the food or water you are about to drink will slowly expose you to a lethal dose of radiation. It will tell you when you are in an area of very high radiation, but won't warn you as you approach early enough to avoid it. Do you have a hand pump well? Even if you are relying on stored water, you should have a means of gathering more. Even if you don't need it right away it may become necessary if you have to irrigate or if you want some of your neighbors to survive. What about communication? You should purchase a good HF radio (and learn how to make the antennas you will need) and a handheld scanner to monitor ICOM/CB traffic. People will be talking, maybe not right away, but eventually you will start to pick up traffic and you will get good info on conditions surrounding your location. A handcrank radio wouldn't hurt either, especially one that can pick up international broadcasts. Do you have seeds stored? Heirloom Seeds (most seeds are sterilized...they will grow, but can't produce viable seeds for the next season) will be very important to anyone who is trying to reestablish food production. Even if your food needs are met via MRE's, long term a sustainable garden is probably going to be necessary, and seeds will be very necessary for restablishing a sustainable community. It is nice to not need anything, but if you are able to provide somewhat for the needs of those around you then they will be less likely to try to take what you have. Besides, you will run out of food eventually. You can either hope that society reestablishes itself by that time, or you can plan on helping it along. Buy a ranger Handbook (fm 21-76). It won't make you a soldier, but it can open your eyes to a lot of the simple ways people hurt other people. I don't think the MOPP gear will be very helpful. If you have an underground shelter then that should be where you wait out an attack. Even persistent chemical agents dissipate eventually...Stay underground and don't risk contaminating your shelter until it is safe to go outside unprotected again. MOPP gear really only lets soldier stay alive for a little while longer, and without a full blown chemical decontamination and atropine, MOPP gear won't keep you alive. If you are worried about an outside invasion (afterall, why would another country nuke us if they are not going to lay claim to the territory they just won?) then you really need to get a few books detailing how to fight an insurgency. It won't be enough to put your head under the sand if we have an occupying force moving into our country. Certain types of antibiotics eventually start to become toxic, and most see a dramatic decrease in effectiveness over time. Don't just assume that long expired antibiotics will work when you need them. Do you have sutures, splints, catheters, etc? And to answer your questions: I do consider myself prepared, though I don't have as many material resources stored up as you do, I have far more than most, and have a very good network of like minded friends, all of whom are extremely capable. If things went bad, I would not try to take power and extort people, but I would try to be an organizing force in the restoration of order. I know that as individuals, it is impossible to defend our homes/gardens/food stores, etc. against a determined (read desperate) group of attackers. People that might turn bad if left alone may instead be assets if they are given some guidance and help. I am not talking about charity here, and I would not try to 'save' everybody, or even most people. However, I would do what I could to help a core group of friends and neighbors get through the disaster and restore a sustainable community. I have some unique materials and skills to offer a few nearby farmers who have more livestock than their land can support without imported hay. The way I see it, one way or another people are going to organize. If you do not do the same then you will be squaring up against mobs of people alone. I don't see a reason to take preparedness to the extreme...unless you have the disposable income to justify it (just like a good health insurance policy). I don't have a lot of extra money, and am not really prepared to weather a nuclear war or whatnot (I live right next to a huge military base), but I am very prepared to survive the sort of localized collapses that are more likely. Greg __________________ "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

03-14-2008, 09:42 AM	#13 (permalink)
MSD Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: CT	I don't have much stocked up. I have the guns and ammo to hunt the overgrown deer population around here for years, and I live close enough to water that I can get water for a while, too. One thing to consider with MREs it that the caloric density is not as high as some other long-shelf-life foods, so if you have to get up and go, they'll take up more space than alternatives. "Two one-megaton atomic bombs explode over New York City" from The Nuclear Winter by Carl Sagan, right?

03-14-2008, 11:45 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tully Mars Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yucatan	I live in an area steeped in Mayan culture. According to many the Maya have an end date built into their calendar. That date is December 21st, 2012 at 11:11 GMT. On the Mayan calendar known as the "long count" that date is presented by 13.0.0.0.0. For years it was believed that the Mayas believed this would be the end of the world as currently known. Recent studies and digs have revealed this is not at an accurate interpretation of 13.0.0.0.0. More likely it is simply that's when the calendar starts over, much like your cars odometer. I have a few survival items I keep at the ready. I have no firearms as they are illegal here. I do have my compound hunting bow and a spear gun. I have a few cases of MRE's and basic items like water, gas, cooking fuel, tent, stove, lanterns, a chainsaw, lots of rope and a trauma bag of medical supplies. I keep these items in my cargo hitch box (it plugs into my towing hitch on my truck.) Do I keep these items ready because I fear the end is near? No. Basically I have them with me because I drove across vast amounts of lonely desert to get here. I keep them ready because the landscape here is flat for miles and my house is less then a 100 yards to the beach. After getting here I mapped out on my GPS what I think will be the quickest route to higher ground, taking into account that I assume most major roads will be jammed. Basically I feel my main safety concern is from a possible tsunami, or more likely, a hurricane that raises the sea level dramatically. Many people have forecast the end of times. So far, thankfully, all have been mistaken. __________________ Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club People are always bitching about getting what they deserve... I think if they did they'd be greatly disappointed. Me

03-19-2008, 05:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	The best survival tool is knowledge of the natural world. Supplies run out, go bad or fail. Knowledge and connection to the Earth doesn't go away. Unless the Earth is left crippled beyond hope and the sky turns to blood and the ground to ash...in that case, I'd be relieved to die. I can make fire, live off the land and I can identify plants for food, medicine and tools. As long as I can find myself in a natural environment, I may be alright...especially in a community. The WATER could be a problem! The way the world is being polluted, that may be the deal-breaker. Let's hope we all get our shit together soon. __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

03-26-2008, 08:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
RetroGunslinger eats puppies and shits rainbows