Modern Philosophy - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

tecoyah · 07-15-2007, 07:10 AM

Shit Happens- The general understanding that life tends to create an adversity by its very nature. This statement seems to imply an acceptance of the everyday challenges, and an attitude of intellectual strength overcoming reality.

Life is hard, then you die- Here we deal with adversity, the minds ability to categorize the realities of everyday existance into subsections, priorities of action, and mortality in the context of a larger understanding of its importance. We also attempt to relinquish the fear our own deaths can create when taken into the realm of life lessons.

Lifes' a bitch, then you marry one- Though similar in expression to the previous phrase, this carries meaning for human interaction, social growth, and sexual differences. The obvious male dominated connotations likely are made in jest, yet express an underlying tug of war between the sexes. Human sexual coupling is complicated by emotional love, which often makes for misunderstanding and frustration in the process. Added to this is the social bond of marriage, which has multiple meanings in an emotional, as well as spiritual context.

If anyone has further understanding of our modern, and expediated form of expressing Philosophy.....please place it here for all to enjoy.

Jetée · 07-15-2007, 07:24 AM

Wow, it is as if you paraphrased Thomas Hobbes to ring to the ears of people in today's society.

Quote:

Life in the state of nature is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

Baraka_Guru · 07-15-2007, 07:50 AM

I always liked this one, mainly because it creeps me out a bit.

governmentality

A concept instigated by Michel Foucault (G. Burchell, C. Gordon, and P. Miller, 1991) to encompass the mentalities, rationalities, and techniques used by governments, within a defined territory, actively to create the subjects (the governed), and the social, economic, and political structures, in and through which their policy can best be implemented. In other words, the way governments try to produce the citizen best suited to fulfil those governments' policies. The current teaching of ‘citizenship’ in UK schools is a good example.

"governmentality." A Dictionary of Geography. Oxford University Press, 1992, 1997, 2004. Answers.com 15 Jul. 2007. http://www.answers.com/topic/governmentality

Jetée · 07-15-2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I always liked this one, mainly because it creeps me out a bit.

governmentality

A concept instigated by Michel Foucault (G. Burchell, C. Gordon, and P. Miller, 1991) to encompass the mentalities, rationalities, and techniques used by governments, within a defined territory, actively to create the subjects (the governed), and the social, economic, and political structures, in and through which their policy can best be implemented. In other words, the way governments try to produce the citizen best suited to fulfil those governments' policies. The current teaching of ‘citizenship’ in UK schools is a good example.

"governmentality." A Dictionary of Geography. Oxford University Press, 1992, 1997, 2004. Answers.com 15 Jul. 2007. http://www.answers.com/topic/governmentality

Biopower

Quote:

Biopower was a term originally coined by French philosopher Michel Foucault to refer to the practice of modern states and their regulation of their subjects through "an explosion of numerous and diverse techniques for achieving the subjugations of bodies and the control of populations".

I, also, was enthralled by this notion set forth by Foucault. I am really eager to see the path that this thread takes from here.

roachboy · 07-15-2007, 12:07 PM

the social-historical:

Quote:

"Inherited thought has necessarily been led to reduce the social-historical to the types of being that it knew or thought it knew – having constructed them and thus determined them – from somewhere else, making the social-historical a variant, a combination or a synthesis of the corresponding beings: thing, subject, idea or concept. … However, if we decide to consider the social-historical for itself; if we understand that it is to be questioned and reflected upon on the basis of itself alone … then we observe that it shatters our inherited logic and ontology. For we see that it does not fall under any traditional categories – except in a nominal and empty way – but instead it makes us recognize the narrow limit of their validity, permits us to glimpse a new and different logic and, above all, radically to alter the meaning of: being." (Castoriadis 1989:169).

Baraka_Guru · 07-15-2007, 12:11 PM

roachboy, I think I just lost myself. Thanks. There goes over thirty years of what I thought was "being."

I have much reading to do. I must go now.

roachboy · 07-15-2007, 01:15 PM

bg: that's a very nice post. thanks.
check out castoriadis' "the imaginary institution of society"...

i worked with cc for quite a while in the 90s and still do extensive research/other stuff with his writing, so pm me if you want more infotainment.

onesnowyowl · 07-15-2007, 01:32 PM

I like this bit, from Kierkegaard:

How did I get into the world? Why was I not asked about it and why was I not informed of the rules and regulations but just thrust into the ranks as if I had been bought by a peddling shanghaier of human beings? How did I get involved in this big enterprise called actuality? Why should I be involved? Isn't it a matter of choice? And if I am compelled to be involved, where is the manager—I have something to say about this. Is there no manager? To whom shall I make my complaint?

Nimetic · 07-19-2007, 07:58 AM

Gee. That puts a shape and a form to an important concept. It's a good definition.

Baraka_Guru · 07-21-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

bg: that's a very nice post. thanks.
check out castoriadis' "the imaginary institution of society"...

i worked with cc for quite a while in the 90s and still do extensive research/other stuff with his writing, so pm me if you want more infotainment.

The Toronto Public Library only carries his World in Fragments and Crossroads in the Labyrinth.

I'm intrigued but I can't justify spending $30+ to buy The Imaginary Institution of Society (as meaty a volume as it is). I'm on a really tight budget. What are these other books of his?

jorgelito · 07-21-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

The Toronto Public Library only carries his World in Fragments and Crossroads in the Labyrinth.

I'm intrigued but I can't justify spending $30+ to buy The Imaginary Institution of Society (as meaty a volume as it is). I'm on a really tight budget. What are these other books of his?

Try a university library.

Baraka_Guru · 07-27-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Try a university library.

What? Library? Books!? Yeah, should have thought of that, except the only university library I'm familiar with is at York University, which is out in the middle of nowhere as far as public transportation is concerned. Maybe I'll go one day in the next while.

A new one: Ideological State Apparatuses (Louis Althusser)
"What the bourgeoisie has installed as its number-one, i.e. as its dominant ideological State apparatus, is the educational apparatus, which has in fact replaced in its functions the previously dominant ideological State apparatus, the Church."

The apparatuses also include law, politics, trade unions, media and the family. Basically, we are all made subjects of the state through these mechanisms. These apparatuses are in place as a counterbalance to the repressive state apparatuses, which include the police and the military.

What, you thought you were "free"?

jorgelito · 07-28-2007, 11:22 PM

Baraka, did you only check one branch of the Toronto Public Library or the entire system?

Sometimes you can request books or they can make an inter-library loan and procure the title you want from another library system.

What other universities are near you?

Baraka_Guru · 07-29-2007, 07:25 AM

jorgelito, I used the TPL's online search, which checks their entire system. They do have a lot of stuff, even though some of the more obscure or archaic items are only available at the Reference Library and you can't sign them out.

I attended York University and I was among the 1% who actually uses the library for research purposes that involve books. Although I don't know of any other university libraries to compare to, the York library seemed to have a lot of stuff. I was amazed at things such as a twelve volume set of the collected letters and journals of Ben Jonson and things like that. It's like four or five floors, which I thought was impressive, and realize that York has separate exclusive libraries for subjects such as law, business, science, and social studies.

I imagine the libraries at the University of Toronto are even more impressive. They would also be much closer and accessible too, especially considering I work downtown during the week. Technically, they would be on my way. Maybe I should consider getting one of those "community" memberships to the main library or something.

roachboy · 07-29-2007, 09:09 AM

mister guru:
crossroads in the labyrinth is an excellent book and was my gateway drug. the essays on psychoanalysis are good intros to the 4th group mode of doing it; the philosophy and the sciences piece is important. but from this one, the text from marx to aristotle and aristotle to ourselves is most interesting, i think. if my experience is any guide, you'll find stuff for yourself going through them regardless. iis is a very complex piece, but it is worth the effort--i am amazed that the paper edition is now $35 a pop to get hold of new. are there used copies floating about?

in between things so no time...more anon.

Baraka_Guru · 07-29-2007, 10:06 AM

The Toronto Public Library has just the copy of Crossroads in the Labyrinth at the Reference Library, which means it cannot be signed out.

The York University Library, on the other hand, has two copies of The Imaginary Institution of Society, though they are both currently checked out; one is due at the end of August, the other at the beginning of September. Go figure. I'm not sure how many holds are on it, so I have no idea how long it would take to get it. But I'm sure it's worth the wait. The University of Toronto has a few copies floating around at various locations as well.

roachboy:
What is it about Castoriadis that intrigues you so much? I'm compelled to read him based on that one excerpt and, of course, your enthusiasm, but perhaps I should get some context before delving into it. What is his lasting significance today? Why should one read him? Is Crossroads a better starting point than IIS?

ARTelevision · 07-29-2007, 12:38 PM

I have always preferred a philosophical position that is not defined by verbal construction.

Mine is like that.

*

Words are something else entirely - nothing philosophical there.

I do have a philosophical interest in words-as-words.
But I do not mistake the map for the territory.

Baraka_Guru · 07-29-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I have always preferred a philosophical position that is not defined by verbal construction. [...] I do have a philosophical interest in words-as-words.

Are you referring to the differences between the rhetoric of speech and text?

ARTelevision · 07-29-2007, 02:16 PM

Not exactly.

I'm referring to the lack of any adequate correspondence between words and experience.

As for words-as-words, I find this (to me) utterly inadequate correspondence to be quite fascinating in itself.

Thanks for your words,
Art

aberkok · 07-29-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I'm referring to the lack of any adequate correspondence between words and experience.

Any!? Come on. Are you saying our primary mode of communication counts for nothing? I must be misunderstanding.

Baraka_Guru · 07-29-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I'm referring to the lack of any adequate correspondence between words and experience.

As for words-as-words, I find this (to me) utterly inadequate correspondence to be quite fascinating in itself.

Yeah, your idea does seem a little suspect. Have you considered Ferdinand de Saussure's "the sign, the signifier, and the signified" for starters?

ARTelevision · 07-29-2007, 06:27 PM

aberkok,
yes that's how it looks to me.

ngdawg · 07-29-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberkok

Any!? Come on. Are you saying our primary mode of communication counts for nothing? I must be misunderstanding.

It counts for nothing because we can manipulate them to be anything depending on who the're aimed at, how they're used, etc.. If we don't know who is truly behind the words, it's our own 'take' on them that makes them what they become and we have to rely on trust and intuition.
Touch, to me, is the primary communicator, followed by what I see in one's face when they look back at me. It's these things, when combined with words, that makes true communication.

Back to the OP: "shit happens"....if you let it. "life happens"....if you will it.
I try to follow something told to me a long time ago: "Worry is a needless action". In other words, if you can't do a thing about it, let it go.

aberkok · 07-29-2007, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

It counts for nothing because we can manipulate them to be anything depending on who the're aimed at, how they're used, etc.. If we don't know who is truly behind the words, it's our own 'take' on them that makes them what they become and we have to rely on trust and intuition.

It's the absolute dismissal I question. Without any reliance on any words then why even bother responding to my post? Why bother saying anything!? ART responded to me, letting me know he finds no meaning in words, so according to that, his post (written in words) counts for nothing and without meeting him I'll have no idea what his position is? Zero?

07-15-2007, 07:10 AM	#1 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary Join Date: Nov 2003	Modern Philosophy Shit Happens- The general understanding that life tends to create an adversity by its very nature. This statement seems to imply an acceptance of the everyday challenges, and an attitude of intellectual strength overcoming reality. Life is hard, then you die- Here we deal with adversity, the minds ability to categorize the realities of everyday existance into subsections, priorities of action, and mortality in the context of a larger understanding of its importance. We also attempt to relinquish the fear our own deaths can create when taken into the realm of life lessons. Lifes' a bitch, then you marry one- Though similar in expression to the previous phrase, this carries meaning for human interaction, social growth, and sexual differences. The obvious male dominated connotations likely are made in jest, yet express an underlying tug of war between the sexes. Human sexual coupling is complicated by emotional love, which often makes for misunderstanding and frustration in the process. Added to this is the social bond of marriage, which has multiple meanings in an emotional, as well as spiritual context. If anyone has further understanding of our modern, and expediated form of expressing Philosophy.....please place it here for all to enjoy.

07-15-2007, 07:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru In the 6th percentile Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto	I always liked this one, mainly because it creeps me out a bit. governmentality A concept instigated by Michel Foucault (G. Burchell, C. Gordon, and P. Miller, 1991) to encompass the mentalities, rationalities, and techniques used by governments, within a defined territory, actively to create the subjects (the governed), and the social, economic, and political structures, in and through which their policy can best be implemented. In other words, the way governments try to produce the citizen best suited to fulfil those governments' policies. The current teaching of ‘citizenship’ in UK schools is a good example. "governmentality." A Dictionary of Geography. Oxford University Press, 1992, 1997, 2004. Answers.com 15 Jul. 2007. http://www.answers.com/topic/governmentality __________________ "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer." —"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." —"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

07-15-2007, 12:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru In the 6th percentile Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto	roachboy, I think I just lost myself. Thanks. There goes over thirty years of what I thought was "being." I have much reading to do. I must go now. __________________ "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer." —"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." —"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

07-15-2007, 01:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago	bg: that's a very nice post. thanks. check out castoriadis' "the imaginary institution of society"... i worked with cc for quite a while in the 90s and still do extensive research/other stuff with his writing, so pm me if you want more infotainment. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-15-2007, 01:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
onesnowyowl feeling evil Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Corvallis, Oregon	I like this bit, from Kierkegaard: How did I get into the world? Why was I not asked about it and why was I not informed of the rules and regulations but just thrust into the ranks as if I had been bought by a peddling shanghaier of human beings? How did I get involved in this big enterprise called actuality? Why should I be involved? Isn't it a matter of choice? And if I am compelled to be involved, where is the manager—I have something to say about this. Is there no manager? To whom shall I make my complaint? __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

07-19-2007, 07:58 AM	#9 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia	Gee. That puts a shape and a form to an important concept. It's a good definition.

07-28-2007, 11:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Baraka, did you only check one branch of the Toronto Public Library or the entire system? Sometimes you can request books or they can make an inter-library loan and procure the title you want from another library system. What other universities are near you? Last edited by jorgelito; 07-28-2007 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

07-29-2007, 07:25 AM	#14 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru In the 6th percentile Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto	jorgelito, I used the TPL's online search, which checks their entire system. They do have a lot of stuff, even though some of the more obscure or archaic items are only available at the Reference Library and you can't sign them out. I attended York University and I was among the 1% who actually uses the library for research purposes that involve books. Although I don't know of any other university libraries to compare to, the York library seemed to have a lot of stuff. I was amazed at things such as a twelve volume set of the collected letters and journals of Ben Jonson and things like that. It's like four or five floors, which I thought was impressive, and realize that York has separate exclusive libraries for subjects such as law, business, science, and social studies. I imagine the libraries at the University of Toronto are even more impressive. They would also be much closer and accessible too, especially considering I work downtown during the week. Technically, they would be on my way. Maybe I should consider getting one of those "community" memberships to the main library or something. __________________ "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer." —"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." —"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

07-29-2007, 09:09 AM	#15 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago	mister guru: crossroads in the labyrinth is an excellent book and was my gateway drug. the essays on psychoanalysis are good intros to the 4th group mode of doing it; the philosophy and the sciences piece is important. but from this one, the text from marx to aristotle and aristotle to ourselves is most interesting, i think. if my experience is any guide, you'll find stuff for yourself going through them regardless. iis is a very complex piece, but it is worth the effort--i am amazed that the paper edition is now $35 a pop to get hold of new. are there used copies floating about? in between things so no time...more anon. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-29-2007, 10:06 AM	#16 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru In the 6th percentile Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto	The Toronto Public Library has just the copy of Crossroads in the Labyrinth at the Reference Library, which means it cannot be signed out. The York University Library, on the other hand, has two copies of The Imaginary Institution of Society, though they are both currently checked out; one is due at the end of August, the other at the beginning of September. Go figure. I'm not sure how many holds are on it, so I have no idea how long it would take to get it. But I'm sure it's worth the wait. The University of Toronto has a few copies floating around at various locations as well. roachboy: What is it about Castoriadis that intrigues you so much? I'm compelled to read him based on that one excerpt and, of course, your enthusiasm, but perhaps I should get some context before delving into it. What is his lasting significance today? Why should one read him? Is Crossroads a better starting point than IIS? __________________ "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer." —"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." —"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

07-29-2007, 12:38 PM	#17 (permalink)
ARTelevision I am we Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA	I have always preferred a philosophical position that is not defined by verbal construction. Mine is like that. * Words are something else entirely - nothing philosophical there. I do have a philosophical interest in words-as-words. But I do not mistake the map for the territory. __________________ www.ARTelevision.com

07-29-2007, 02:16 PM	#19 (permalink)
ARTelevision I am we Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA	Not exactly. I'm referring to the lack of any adequate correspondence between words and experience. As for words-as-words, I find this (to me) utterly inadequate correspondence to be quite fascinating in itself. Thanks for your words, Art __________________ www.ARTelevision.com

07-29-2007, 06:27 PM	#22 (permalink)
ARTelevision I am we Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA	aberkok, yes that's how it looks to me. __________________ www.ARTelevision.com