Racnad

All:

Some very religious people argue that religion is necessary for one to have a moral compass. They argue that without a beleif in a god that has certain expectations for how you should behave (and can observe your actions when other people cannot), there is no reason not to lie, cheat, steal, harm others, etc.

What do you think? If you are an athiest or agnostic, on what do you base your personal sense of morality?

Infinite_Loser

I do know one thing: Religious persons are nearly four times as likely to care for the poor than their atheistic counterparts (And even constitute about 90'ish% of all non-profit relief funds).

...But, no one really cares about that >.>

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Jinn

On the Golden Rule.

I don't want to be stolen from, physically attacked, murdered, lied to, etc.

So then why should I do these things to other people?

I think that in all reality, murder is harder for agnostics and atheists because we are not assured salvation if we kill enemies of the religion, and because death is much more final when there isn't an afterlife.

Additionally, strong Theists can justify any action they take by saying that it doesn't matter what people here (on Earth) think because God is the only one who has a right to judge them. By contrast, I know that the people here on Earth are the only ones to be effected by (and judge me based on) my actions, so I work to avoid doing things that would harm others.

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mixedmedia

Well, IL, I won't disagree with you, but it's not exactly what Racnad is asking about.

I have no belief in a god, but my moral compass is pretty highly attuned, I think. Rather than god having expectations of me, I have them of myself.

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Jinn

Show me a reputable source which claims such. The difficulty with an assertion such as yours is that it is easier to measure contributions from an organization like a church because they are mandated by law to keep financial records. Unfortunately for you, there are very few "atheist" organizations which keep such records. NO study has been done to defend your claim, and understandably so; it'd be nigh impossible to do so.

Your claim is made even more obviously tenuous by the fact that you used "nearly 4 times" and "90%ish" - meaning you didn't actually read ACTUAL numbers from a REPUTABLE source, but made it up (or someone else made it up, and passed it on).

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If you struggle with something your entire life, try harder.
Awareness without action is worthless, and failure is not an accident.

abaya

Yep. Which is even rougher going than it was as a Christian. It was nice knowing that I was forgiven for all my sins... but these days, I know I have to work to reverse or lessen the harm I've done to other people and myself (which is my equivalent of "sin"). And work is a lot harder than forgiveness... which is how it should be, in my world. Also, as JinnKai said, there's no afterlife, so there's a lot more impetus to make THIS one worth it, every last minute of it.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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Willravel

Well, over 90% of the population of the Earth is religious. I'd call that dead even, assuming you didn't pull that stat from thin air.

I base my morality on a few things:
1) The good of the pack: One of the innate traits of humans is that there is an innate loyalty to the pack, to do good for your family, friends, and community because ultimately it's good for survival. This, in my opinion, means that if a neighbor's car needs a jump, I jump the car. They get to work on time, do well, and the whole is benefited (assuming my neighbor isn't driving to go kill someone or rob a bank). This probably explains why I'm socialist.

2) Empathy: One of those wonderful things that seems to come with being sentient is the ability to perceive and comprehend the feelings of others. If I see someone who is sad, I understand sadness myself and I make a connection between my own feelings and those of the person who is sad. This helps in backing up the golden rule. If you comprehend the emotional experience of others, it's easy to sympathize and thus treat them the way you yourself would expect to be treated.

3) The law: Yes, the morality of the land is supposed to be the law. I use the law as a guide to live by, usually. This is unless the first two override the law. If the law says it's okay to torture, the second rule overrules it. If the law says it's okay to let the poor suffer, the first rule overrides it.

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Bill O'Rights

Because millions of years of evolution has given us the ability to reason.

Maybe. But I very highly doubt that. However...since you know these "facts", perhaps you would be willing to share your references with the rest us. I, for one, would find that a most fascinating read.

Wait a minute...
Let's say, for arguments sake, that you have 100 people. 90 of whom consider themselves "religious", whereas the other 10 identify with atheists and agnostics. Let's say that all of them donated to a non-profit relief fund. Of course you could say that religious persons constitute about 90% of all non-profit relief funds, and be technically correct. You could also say that 100% of the non-religious persons contributed to non-profit relief funds.
And of those same 100 people...if the religious ones (90% remember) are only 4 times as likely to care for the poor than their atheistic counterparts, that's pretty dismal.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

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Elphaba

Consider the possibility the morality preceeded religeous belief. Frankly, how could it be otherwise?

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Ustwo

I forget who said it but the quote goes something like...

'When people say we need more religion, what they are really saying is we need more police'.

Religion may contain some good morality lessons but its not the source of human morality.

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Spektr

Religion is responsible for the deaths of billions of people throughout history. The ideas and motivations for ethics and morality have little to no formal connection to any organized religious tradition. Stoicism from the Greco-Roman is a key factor in what became the Catholic interpretation of a "moral code" despite the Stoics' aversion to religious dogma. The morality argument frequently used by religious hacks is simply one more method of ensuring their continued ignorance and illogical claims of superiority.

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Garmonbozia

Charlatan

This is exactly how I feel.

In fact, I will go further and suggest that an atheist's morality is stronger than a religious person's as we must do the right thing without fear of an eternity in Hell or some other supernatural retribution should be fail to live up to standard.

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Baraka_Guru

I'm an atheistic Buddhist. I won't go into detail, but the Golden Rule plays a lot into it. I don't need to believe in a vengeful or fatherly God to have morality, I merely need to observe and learn what is good and what is evil. It is based on my experience; it is being attuned to suffering and knowing its cause and how to at least try to alleviate it.

Once I know what causes my own suffering, I can determine what may cause others' suffering. I cannot even begin to help others unless I understand it for myself.

This is my moral "compass."

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"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer."

—"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell

"Humankind cannot bear very much reality."

—"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

guyy

I'll simply note that Confucianism is extremely powerful ethical system which -- egads! -- lacks a diety. The idea that we'd eat each other were it not for Sky Gods is not only absurd but ethnocentric.

As it is written in the Analects, talk about ghosts and things like teacups circling the sun is unproductive.

Infinite_Loser

...Because, you know, I've got nothing better to do than to make up false statistics. I could have said "3.6 times more likely" and "87%", but those figures would be incorrect as that's not what they are. Hence why I said "nearly 4 times" and "90'ish". Also, I love the claim "No study has been done to defend your claim". Really. I do. Because, you know, it's not like it's not possible to, you know, ask someone of they're a theist or not and look at their non-profit contributions for the year >.>

You're right about one thing, though. I don't have the exact statistic on-hand, but I can find it (Won't be too hard. I know exactly where to look).

Anyway, to the two people who've claimed it's harder to be a moral atheist than a moral theist... Just what the hell are you smoking? To assert such a claim you would have to at least acknowledge that there's some repercussions in a disbelief in God-- But you don't (And won't). You, as an atheist, have no predetermined standard upon which you live. Like I've said in other threads, it's much easier to be a moral atheist than a moral theist, because you aren't REQUIRED to abide by any set of rules and regulations.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Dilbert1234567

my moral compass:

if the roles were reversed, would i be happy with what is being done to me. if i don't want it done to me (lied to, stolen from, etc) i don't do it to others.

i am required to follow these rules because i would hate myself if i didn't.

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Charlatan

I think you are missing the point.

The fact that it isn't required and that there are no consequences to my choices *is* difficult. I don't have a book that I can point to tell me how to live a "moral" life. I have to come to these conclusions on my own, through experience (usually hard earned). In my experience this is a harder path to walk than one that comes with a guide book and threats of eternal damnation if I fail to follow the instructions found inside.

Compound this with my firm belief that this is the *only* life I have. There is no redemption or do over for screwing it up.

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tecoyah

Believe it or not, some Atheist firmly believe in Karma and the kicker is that it actually comes down and kicks you in the ass in this life, not in the next. For someone who accepts a reality that takes this into the lifestyle, it can be far more compelling than eternal damnation. One need only look at the Pat Robertsons and Osama Bin Ladens of the world to see just how powerful a scriptural based morality is on the human mind.
In my own life, I try very hard not to piss off "that which is", and keeping my own Karma intact goes a long way toward that goal.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Baraka_Guru

The predetermined standard upon which atheists live is the one built by theists. Whether they were pagans, monotheists or atheists, there have been many who contributed to what we understand today as morality and ethics. Atheists evaluate this and make their own judgements based on experience and other forms of learning. There are few, if any, born and raised in North America who completely escape the influence of the foundational Judeo-Christian values upon which this society was built. These are the rules and regulations that act as a baseline.

Atheists merely say something along the lines of: "You were right about this, but wrong about that. Thank you, and no thank you."

And Charlatan has an excellent point. It reminds us that this isn't easy for anyone. Besides, trying to determine who has it harder isn't only beside the point, it is something that is unmeasurable. We could spend our time more constructively, I think.

__________________
"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer."

—"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell

"Humankind cannot bear very much reality."

—"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

tecoyah

Upon a full reading, and better understanding of your claim....I think you are obviously correct. Throughout my life I have rarely met a Theist who actually follows the guidelines set before them by the faith they follow, and thus must assume it is a very difficult criteria to live up to. In fact my own path led away from a Catholic life because of the inability of Nuns to do so, as well as my own. After watching the priesthood become visibly corrupt the issue of this difficulty becomes all the more clear.
So in my mind at least, the question of actual morality and what it is in practice comes to the forefront. Its all good and fine to read the manual, but if you don't understand it, or cannot follow the directions it is a useless document. If however, you look at the pictures, and can easily see what piece connects to another...you can still build the entertainment center even if the instructions are written in Chinese.
Claiming it is harder for a Theist to follow moral principles does not in any way add respect to them, and in many ways makes the Theist seem corrupt. Personally, I think it makes sense to take from scripture those things that make us a better person (whatever that is), and toss the leftovers away. Asking God to hold your hand just seems like a cop out to me.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

QuasiMondo

I base my morality on three things:

1. Is what I am doing (or about to do) necessary for me to reach my goal?
2. Do I have the means (financially, physically, etc.) to carry out my intentions?
3. Is there a high risk in being caught and punished for what I do? If the risk is great, does the reward outweigh it?

If you cannot answer 'yes' to all three questions, then chances are that you will not commit the crime/sin/whatever. This can apply to anything immoral/illegal from speeding to murder. Try it out the next time you hear about somebody being arrested for something. The first two questions are rather straightforward. The third question will come down to whether it was an act of civil disobedience out of protest, a feeling of invincibility in thinking that they sufficiently covered their own ass so they won't be caught or convicted in a court of law, or in extreme cases, a sociopath who is indifferent to the possiblity of being caught and to the punishment they may face, no matter how severe it is.

Placed in the context of religions, these three questions still apply, however in most cases, the third question will always be no because of their assumption that their actions are constantly monitored by God (or the cosmic forces that manipulate Karma) and the risk of a less than satisfactory afterlife (or simple poetic justice) will outweigh any desire that is fulfilled by committing a wrongful act.

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Dilbert1234567

i don't worry about being caught, it has no real barring, because i will know myself that i did wrong, and i don't want to live with that on my conscious.

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Racnad

I believe in a concept I call "moral maturity." That is the ability look beyond one's immediate situation and make consisitant descisions in your own long-term self interest and the interests of those you care about.

If you lie and cheat, you may get ahead in the short term, but the longer term result of your actions is that people will not trust you, you won't do as well in your career and you won't have quality friends. So being trustworthy and true to your word will get you further in the long term.

Another principle I live by is to imagine the world you'd like to live in, and live as closley as practical as if you live in that world. I'd like a world where you can trust everyone, where you don't need looks on your doors, where everyone takes responsibility for their lives and actions.

Well, since I don't live in the world, I do lock my doors. But I can still live my life and treat others as I did live in that world, and pick friends who live the same way.

The problem with morals derived from God is that not everyone agrees on exactly how God wants people to live. By definition, anything that God asks of you is moral, and history is full of examples of people who believe that God had instructed them to lie, cheat and commit violence against others.

If you had the opportunity to steal something you wanted with a very low probability of getting caught, would you do it? If your definition of sin is not derived from religion, then what makes it a sin, if you're not going to get caught & punished?

Jinn