Cyborg Ninja

I am a secular woman and I adhere to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Does this seem unusual? I believe that my views would be the same even if Jesus never existed. I was raised in a secular household, so Christian views weren't pushed on me in any way, though I have studied the religion off and on since I was 11. There are many figures in history that are similar to Jesus: Gandhi, Buddha, etc. Basically, those people who put others above themselves. It is an admirable trait and a very rare one at that.

Unfortunately, Jesus' teachings have been twisted by millions throughout history. I wonder if he realized what an impact he would have on the world. I also am conflicted as to whether or not he truly claimed to be God, or that his Apostles misinterpreted him. Either way, I think his teachings are important for us to learn and keep close at heart.

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DaveOrion

I agree, His teachings have been twisted and downright raped to one degree or another. His Kingdom, which is not an earthly kingdom, was turned into an organized religion, and corrupted in order to control the masses.

Funny how people still look for God in a church made of wood & stone, they seem to forget where the only real church is........

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

Infinite_Loser

^Oh, boy. I'd love to hear the rationalization behind this one.

*Grabs a bucket of popcorn*

...I'm guessing you've never heard of the sect of Nazarene, huh?

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DaveOrion

Hows the popcorn Loser??? And hows the weather down in Lake Mary???

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The world cares very little about what you know; it is what you are able to do that really matters.

roachboy

um...which teachings?
i assume that you split the gospels off from the epistles...

what does it mean for you to follow them?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

asaris

And how does it differ from any other vaguely humanistic philosophy? It's always seemed to me that what makes Jesus' teachings unique are those things that characterize the religion -- sin and grace. Most of the other teachings you could probably learn just as well from Deepak Chopra.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Baraka_Guru

....except Jesus doesn't try to confuse things by bringing in quantum physics.

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"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer."

—"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell

"Humankind cannot bear very much reality."

—"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

roachboy

that's how you can tell jesus and deepak chopra apart, baraka.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

abaya

Yes, without a firm belief in those (and their impact on your eternal soul--another concept that you have to believe in), Christianity doesn't have anything on other religions. You have to believe in a need for personal redemption--not just in the here and now, but in a very real afterlife--in order to have a need for Jesus.

For me, once I stopped believing in hell, it was all over. Slippery slope, all that jazz. Sure, I was still able to get behind the idea of redemption in the here and now, sin being that which we do to hurt ourselves and each other, grace as in the undeserved forgiveness and acceptance of ourselves and each other after enduring those hurts--but I could no longer make sense of how these principles would apply to an afterlife, as a way of "gatekeeping" some eternal place of glory vs. punishment/separation from God.

So I ceased being able to believe in that kind of sin and grace, and there was no choice but to stop calling myself a Christian. It would not be fair to those who do subscribe to, believe in, and truly live by those principles. I have no patience for hypocrisy in religious individuals, least of all myself. It's all or nothing, to me. There is no room for half-assedness in my understanding of faith.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cyborg Ninja

Humanism as we know it today didn't exist until fairly recently. Jesus of Nazareth preached nearly two millennia ago. Existing in a time and place where ritualism without spirituality as the norm and preaching something entirely different — that deserves some approval. The teachings I adhere to are the ones from the Gospels, not the Epistles (mostly), like you figured. I do consider myself a secular humanist today, in case anyone's curious. It's funny how so many conservatives act like Humanism is Satanism somehow... but that's for another topic.

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abaya

I would say that many evangelicals consider secular humanism to be "not of the Lord," etc. I don't know if they would go so far as to call it Satanism, but with evangelicalism (and indeed, with most branches of Christianity, if you get down to brass tacks), anything that is NOT inclusive of Jesus Christ is inherently wrong and subject to error. This is due to the whole business of Jesus being "the way, the truth, and the life... no one comes to the Father except through me"... pretty blatant there, there's no way to be redeemed and have eternal life UNLESS you become a Christian. So by that logic, secular humanism (different from Christian Humanism, something I was very interested in for a long time) was a slippery slope away from Jesus, which always means "towards hell." There's no way of getting around that, in the gospels or otherwise.

The thing that I can't get about Christianity is that basically, unless you're explicitly Christian (e.g. have done the salvation prayer, asked Jesus for forgiveness, yadda yadda), YOU ARE GOING TO HELL. No two ways around it. I have never been able to forgive Christianity for this fact, I suppose. Even if you are the most tolerant, open-minded Christian in the world, as long as you know that I have NOT said the salvation prayer, you are going to believe (at some gut level) that I am going to hell. I find that extremely disturbing, now that I have left the fold. What a way to live and interact with your fellow man!

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Infinite_Loser

^I don't see why you find it disturbing unless you believe you're going to hell, otherwise you wouldn't care. With that being said, I'm not familiar with too many religions in which you're not subjected to eternal damnation unless you convert. It's not just a "Christian" thing. Who knew? Obviously not you

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abaya

Let me clarify: I don't find the idea of hell disturbing, because indeed, I don't give a rat's ass about it.

What I find disturbing is that when an evangelical Christian interacts with me, the primary thought in their mind (in one way or another) is that "here is an unsaved person," or that I have "rejected my salvation," that I am somehow "wretched," "corrupt," etc. in their minds. It doesn't matter what else I am capable of, or what is going on in my life, etc... all that matters is whether or not they can relate to me (or not) as a fellow person going to heaven. I find it extremely annoying. I much prefer to simply interact as two humans, both doing the best we can, regardless of where we believe we're going (or not) after we die. But Christians are compelled to *worry* about where other people are going when they die. I wish they wouldn't bother, frankly.
I did not say that it was "just" a Christian thing. I, specifically, used to be a Christian, and I walked away from Christianity. If I had formerly been a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, or something else, then I would have been walking away from those religions. As it is, I have issues with pretty much all religions, so no, I don't see it is as "just a Christian" thing. But it is the only religion that I have summarily rejected, and it is the topic of this thread, so that is why I couched my post in those terms.

And since you asked, with Buddhism there is no "eternal damnation," and there isn't really even a "conversion." You either live it, or you don't. If I was forced to choose another belief system, I would have to go with that one. Not the pop-culture one that is served up in, say, Theravada Buddhism, however... (which I'm most familiar with from Thai culture), but something more adherent to doctrine.

By the way, what's up with the demeaning attitude here? I'd appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cyborg Ninja

I don't know why Infinite_Loser is acting like a jerk here, but I did notice it, Abaya. Loser: Please don't try to make this forum a crappy one where all we have are trolls and flames. There are plenty of those already. BTW, opposite of what you think, you're coming off as the ignorant one here.

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MSD

He's know for an abrasive style, but as long as he stays in line and discussion continues it's allowed, even if just barely. We keep an eye on people who are known to toe the line and smack them when they try to cross it.

If anyone violates a rule, or you think they did but aren't sure, please report the post and/or PM a moderator. If anyone has problems with another member, we're happy to work with you to resolve them.

Infinite_Loser: I would appreciate if you would tone it down some and consider how you come across to other members. This isn't the first time people have mentioned that your posts are condescending and demeaning.

filtherton

There are a lot of christians who don't believe in eternal damnation. There are also a lot of christians who are essentially secular.

ubertuber

I think that begs the question of where we cross the line from considering a diluted version of Christianity and where you're dealing with a belief structure that can't really be considered Christian. I won't venture an opinion - I'm now far enough outside of the issue that I can't really comment on it. But surely there's a line somewhere?

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Baraka_Guru

I think that where Christianity as a religion and Christianity as a philosophy breaks with one another is how each looks at hell. I think the religiously minded will tend to take the view that our failing to live like Jesus Christ will end in hell, and that is something to fear. The philosophically minded will instead look at the teachings of Jesus and think, "Why would breaking from the teachings of Jesus place us in a state akin to hell? What is it about this morality that is pure and good? What is it about everything else that is impure and evil?" It is like Buddhism, where misery arises out of our straying off the righteous path.

__________________
"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer."

—"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell

"Humankind cannot bear very much reality."

—"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

filtherton

Well, i would imagine the line is drawn depending on how rigidly one clings to one's own sense of dogma. I think that the idea that there is only one way to be a true christian is fairly ridiculous. For it to hold water there would need to be some way for a particular sect to make reasonable claim to being the only true christian sect, a claim which isn't really credible, since even under the umbrella of major denominational classifications there can be a pretty wide spread in terms of belief. The only reason people claim that their way is the one true way is because that's what they think their god wants them to believe, which, you know, doesn't make it true.

It's kind of like if i were to claim that you can only be a true football fan if you acknowledge that walter payton was the best running back in the history of league. Who the fuck am i to define what it means to be a football fan?

Infinite_Loser

Oh, but you will As my grandmother always says, sometimes some people get too big for their britches (a.k.a, you think you know more than you actually do).

Let's see... How can I put this in a delicate manner... It really doesn't matter what you find as annoying. One of the underlying premise of almost any belief system-- Philosophical, social and/or political-- Is to garner as many adherents as possible (I know I've said this before but it gets ignored every single time). You choose not to follow the teachings of Christ, so as far as Christianity is concerned you're wrong and need to be converted. Whether you're a "good" person or not is pretty irrelevent.

Phew... That was a close one, seeing as how I said "all" and/or any other word resembling as much. Ya' know, I'm not the smartest person in the world (Hah! Who am I kidding? Yes, I am) I could have almost sworn-- Almost-- That I said, and I quote, "I'm not familiar with too many religions in which you're not subjected to eternal damnation unless you convert". Yes, yes. I know all about Buddhism, hence what caused me to make my initial statement. I'm not understanding why you seem to love focusing on bits and pieces of what I write out while ignoring the rest. It's, mildly put, annoying >_>

I have no attitude. I'm, as we Southern black folk tend to say, telling it like it is. But if you want me to cop an attitude, then I can

So does this mean I could start a new brand of atheism which worships Jesus as the son of God and still have it be branded as a true form of as atheism? I'm just wondering because it appears to me this is what you're saying.

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ubertuber

Filtherton: can it really be completely relative?

I ask because I have recently heard claims and rejections of the idea that Mormonism is a flavor of Christianity. To me, that seems to be stretching things a bit - I mean, at some point a group could claim to fall under the umbrella, but a reasonable analysis would disagree.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Cyborg Ninja

MrSelfDestruct: do you recommend completely ignoring people like Loser, or should we go ahead and trash his poorly-conceived arguments?

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Infinite_Loser

Well, you see, those are fighting words. As they say, talk is cheap. If you believe you can then, by all means, go ahead and try to trash my "Poorly-conceived arguments", as you want to call them.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

filtherton

No. Regardless of what i'm saying, the definition of atheism still implies a lack of a belief in a diety. The term christianity implies a belief in and following of jesus. That's it, despite what your pastor told you. It doens't mean you have to hate homosexuals, it doesn't mean that interracial marriages are an abomination, it just means that you place a high priority on the worship of the jesus. You can pretend that you're following the only "true" form of christianity, but you'd be full of shit in doing so.