Willravel

I like forgiving people when they change. I also like to be forgiven when I learn from something. It's about becoming a better person. I don't really mean to mess up, but I do from time to time as most do. I always make it a point, though, to try and learn from my mistakes and poor behavior so that I can improve as a person.

Not everyone does this, though. Some people do bad things knowing full well what they're doing and are not repentant after. They do what they do or say what they say and have no qualms about how what they've done is destructive in some way. There's no remorse, and they're likely to do it again. This can be common in children who are still learning societal and moral norms, of course, and they can be forgiven because of their ignorance, but what an adult who understands a basic right and wrong construct and still breaches this for some selfish reason is willfully being a bad person.

Should someone who willfully does harm by word or deed be forgiven if they are not repentant?

Today my dad and I got into a little fight over the phone about something inconsequential and I found myself suddenly back at age 16. There was a particular incident where I had to do a stress test for my heart by running for a long time on a treadmill. This often meant 45 minutes of walking to running for me, and left me absolutely exhausted. Unfortunately, we had a minor fight in the car drive on the way to the stress test. We got into the waiting room, I was called back, I ran for 45 minutes, and when I came out my father was gone. He had decided that if I was old enough to argue with him, I was old enough to find my way home. What he forgot to take into account , or possibly something he was aware of, was that because I was running, I didn't bring my cell phone or wallet. I was stranded, exhausted and virtually incapable of walking the 20 or so miles home. I did end up walking home (and found out that you can't call cell phones collect, which meant I couldn't contact any of my friends), but it took me many hours and by the time I got home it was the middle of the night and I had severely pulled muscles in my legs and was severely dehydrated.

This is one of those things I simply can't bring myself to forgive. I discussed it with him later, and he was and continues to be sure that he did the right thing, which baffles me.

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ring

Being able to forgive does not entail condoning someones behavior.
Some have a difficult time seperating the two.
Ultimately, being able to forgive is something we do for our own peace of
mind, a healthy dose of selfishness it has been callled.

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because I'm not running away. - ring

Willravel

Maybe I should make this more general and ask what forgiveness means to you. For me it's a "I see that you've realized you made a mistake and, whether begrudgingly or not, have made amends of some kind". It's a recognition of a restoration of peace and understanding between two people.

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Jinn

Forgiveness means nothing more to me than "I'm not going to let your previous actions upset me anymore." As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to tell a person when or if I've forgiven them. I just make a mental decision to not let it bother me anymore. Forgiveness is for me, not them.

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Willravel

But if they show no remorse, then there's a chance that you may fall victim to what they have done again. For example: I don't let my dad drive me anywhere anymore, and I always have my wallet and cell on me no matter what. Had he apologized or shown me that he was sorry for doing that to me, I wouldn't have to think twice when he offered to drive. Maybe what I mean is that to me forgiveness is about trust, too. I trust that in the future you'll try to correct your actions. Without that trust being rebuilt, the wound is open.

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The_Jazz

will, this is interesting. I think I see two separate issues here, forgiveness and trust, and I believe that their are mutually exclusive.

Forgiveness is, as JinnKai put it so well, an internal decision not to allow an individual's past sins bother you. I'm clearly no expert on Christianity, but it seems to me that Christian forgiveness exists entirely as hindsight.

Trust is something completely different. You may have forgiven the sinner but that doesn't mean that you have to trust them not to commit the sin again. The anecdote with your father I think highlights this difference very nicely in that you don't have to trust him not to leave you stranded again, but you can forgive him for the one offense. You are a prudent person, so you are ready to find yourself having to arrange your own transportation if he decides to teach you another leason.

I have more to this, but I can't seem to get it to flow at the moment...

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Willravel

I've never considered forgiveness and trust to be exclusive ideas. I'm reminded of Ghandi on his deathbed, forgiving his assassin. I always interpreted this as a combination of 1) religious (mumbo jumbo, from my perspective) and 2) an act of example for the purpose of teaching non-violence, simply seeing those two ideas as something that overrode the trust issue (he wouldn't trust the asshole not to try and assassinate him again, obviously). It was the ultimate example of not seeking retribution. But looking at it through the lens of forgiveness and trust being separate, the sentiment takes on a different meaning.

I'm going to have to think about this.

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Crompsin

Forgiveness isn't about him, it's about you.

I learned this from my divorce.

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All your base are belong to us.

twistedmosaic

You're confusing forgive and forget. Forgive means you internally are no longer wasting emotional energy harboring ill will against someone who has wronged you. It's not worth your time, and it's not healthy.

However, at the same time, if your dad is unrepentant, by all means, forgiveness does not require you make yourself vulnerable to repeat behavoir. Putting yourself in the same situation and expecting different results is called insanity, not forgiveness.

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Infinite_Loser

As per the Bible, forgive and move on. That doesn't mean you have to trust the other person and be buddy-buddy with them, but it does mean not becoming vindictive.

Discussion over. Move along, people. Nothing else to see here

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

twistedmosaic

Ah yes, how silly of us to not consult the Bible first, as all members of this forum (and really, the world in general) view it as the final unquestionable authority to solve all of lifes questions and problems. How could we have forgotten.

Thanks to this post, we have seen the light, and now that this thread contains Infinite Loser's interpretation of the Holy Word of God, truly, no further discussion is needed.

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Bossnass

It is also an issue of if 'forgiveness' is required. It is very subjective and 'remorseless, willful' behavior may only be an issue to the offended. I'm certain that I've done and said things that have offended and hurt other people. Even if my actions have resulted in worse outcomes than I anticipated, I'm not looking to be forgiven and won't show remorse. The issue is in the mind of the offended.

I've known for a long time that my dad is fallible. I also know that I've inherited most my intelligence from him and that he has an insurmountable lead in life experiences and wisdom. Kudos to willravel Sr. Apparently this lesson stuck, albeit not in the manner intended.

roachboy

i can understand how something like this can happen, will...
sooner or later, you let go of it.

if my experience is any guide (who knows?) it can come down to choosing to maintain a relationship with your father because there are reasons to want to as opposed to not maintaining one. which is not easy because we carry around lizard-brain level reactions to things long ago, and sometimes spice things up by finding ways to map these lizard-brain responses onto more recent situations.

so it seems to me that you have to let go of the child's conception (from you as a child, i mean) of your father first and see him for what he was--and is--which is someone like yourself muddling along doing some things that were cool, fucking up other things and seeing it, fucking up yet other things and not seeing it.
at least that way it's easier to see things and not replace them with projections.

i tried to do this, but i dont remember it happening all at once: i think i decided that i was going to do something like this a bunch of times and thought each time that i did it, and maybe i did, it's hard to know.

and this doesn't mean at all that family will suddenly no longer piss you off. o no. it just gives you more choices in what you eventually decide to do when it happens.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

The_Jazz

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The proud dad of Max since 2/15/06 and Andrew since 1/9/08!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Ustwo

Sometimes there is a quantum shift in the Universe, particles which should never line up in such a way do, defying tremendous odds in probability. One of those times was when life arose from a jumble of chemicals.

This is another one of those times.

I agree with roachboy and couldn't have said it better.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Infinite_Loser

Worry not, for you are forgiven

*Sigh*

I'm going to have to remind myself that humor doesn't go over well on the internet. Next time I'll use the 'subtle humor' tags when posting. Apparently us Christians aren't the only 'uptight' folks in the world .

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

twistedmosaic

ROFL. You sir, win the internet for today.

And Infinite Loser, I ask your forgiveness for making my point sarcastically, rather than directly. We are in agreement in substance. Forgive always, but don't forget unless there's a good reason.

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blktour

I think it is a big deal to you because it is your father. Like others said above. If you feel that you do not need to hold a grudge and you can let it go, then forgive it. water under the bridge. to a stranger who had done that to me, I would think twice about it also. I just think that it hits closer to home since the person we speak of is your father.

If a coworker yelled at me, and hated me, I wouldnt care.
If my girlfriend yelled at me, and hated me, then i would try to work it out.
if my father yelled at me and hated me, i would try harder than the GF.
that is just my relationship with my dad. I love the man, and knowing him, he would have a reason. I would talk to him, and see how we could come to an understanding, and then work from there. I wouldnt hold a grudge.

you will not be able to change your fathers decision, of why he did it, and how he feels about it. just let it go and be happy that you have a great father, (I would hope he is. ) and that he made a mistake in your eyes, but you could forgive him.

jewels

There is no remorse when one feels he's right. You think he's being selfish?

I understand being in pain, you might feel that way. But he's still your father. Can you see his side and not necessarily agree with him? Again, I'm not saying he was right, but he must have perceived your arguing with him as sassing or talking back. As a father, he must have felt disrespected and meted out the punishment. Why should he repent? It's his job to teach you to respect.

Back at the age of 16? Does that mean he baited and you bit? With age comes wisdom and here's my dime, take it or leave it. This is why he feels sure he did the right thing; you talked back, he's teaching you that it's wrong. You fall back to childhood, he falls back to fatherhood.

I don't know if you still live in his house but somehow I doubt that. If you did, then hell yeah, he's the boss. But you're old enough to catch him in the right mood and let him know you're an adult and don't need disciplining anymore. You're an adult, dammit, and you should be able to disagree with him.

If he can't be rational and discuss the subject to your liking, then you may be down to what I call "keeping things pleasant". This means you don't talk about anything of substance or anything that could potentially wreak havoc on his set and tender psyche.

I've forgiven my mom for some really shitty parenting and although conversing with her can still be difficult, I let EVERYTHING that she says that annoys me, is wrong and normally would be bait, go by. I don't know when she's going to die and I know that whenever she does, I want her to pass knowing that I loved her despite her faults and that I can move on in peace when she does. For me, that's become more important than being right.

Willravel

I don't know how selfishness enters the equation. He allowed his anger to be channelled into his choice of punishments, and it pissed me off because I saw it as needlessly excessive and borderline abusive. I brought it up later, and he excused his actions as appropriate. I disagree.
Can I see leaving my son in such a situation? Honestly, no. While I recognize that punishment is sometimes necessary, there are no instances in which abuse is appropriate.
And had he chosen to teach me a lesson by shooting me in the face? Are all punishments excused by them being a part of a lesson?

I'm afraid this is getting a bit off track. What I was hoping was to have other people discuss their stuff and their opinions.

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ratbastid

True forgiveness, as has been said, has nothing to do with them and what they will or won't do in the future. Forgiveness is possibly the purest act of generosity a human being is capable of.

The root of "forgive" is "fore-give"--to give them back how it was before. It means YOU giving up the right to hold whatever it is against them ever again--not because they deserve it, or you're convinced they're sorry, or they've learned anything, or you believe anything in particular about their future behavior. You'd only do that if you were sick and tired of the cost ON YOU of continuing to hold it against them. It costs you BIG (and I don't mean just Will, but I do mean Will).

We're weird, us human beings. We try to kill others by swallowing the poison ourselves.

jewels

Does this feel better?

Your definition sounds like a pact between two feuding countries.

It's not about right or wrong. Forgiveness is a willingness to love despite another's flaws, letting go of all hatred and anger.

Willravel

So then I guess the question is: what's worth more to me, letting it go or keeping it?

That's a toughie. I'll admit that the idea of simply letting it go doesn't seem just, but at the same time, harboring frustrations also aren't just. I'll talk to him about it tomorrow. Then I'll leave him at the doctor's office.

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jewels

That's the spirit!

Scary