"They" don't hate us... they believe almost the same thing: - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Willravel · 03-08-2008, 10:05 PM

The Muslim Jesus

Above is a video explaining in reasonable detail how Jesus Christ is interpreted in the Qur'an and how he is perceived by Muslims. I've posted it in philosophy because I don't want this to turn into something about Iran vs. US or getting our of Iraq or Israel vs. Palestine; no, this is simply about bridging a phantom gap between Christianity and Islam. This is a gap much smaller than I think people realize.

Please enjoy, and I hope you'll discuss what you think about the video and it's philosophical implications.

Baraka_Guru · 03-08-2008, 10:38 PM

Birth:

And she (Mary) who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

—Qur'an, 21:91

And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs

—Qur'an, 23:50

When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead.

—Sahih Bukhari, 4:54:506

Death:

O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court...

—Qur'an, 3:55

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him...

—Qur'an, 3:144

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

—Qur'an, 4:157

Second Coming:

And when Allah said: O Jesus, I am going to terminate the period (or give you death or take you back) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

—Qur'an, 3:55

And when Allah will say: O Jesus son of Mary! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

—Qur'an, 5:116

And peace on me (Jesus) on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

—Qur'an, 19:33

Ustwo · 03-09-2008, 10:29 PM

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Excerpt K 9:073
Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them...

Excerpt K 47:035
Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...

And on, and on, and on......

Its nicely old testament.

But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore.

Willravel · 03-09-2008, 10:43 PM

Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an.

Baraka_Guru · 03-10-2008, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore.

But we were picking and choosing about Jesus.

And by the by, I could post endlessly about the atrocities committed by the American people. But what would be the point? I would think no less of you and it would be irrelevant here. Please try to keep focus. You don't see me posting a bunch of paintings based on the Qur'an. I'd really like to because their beautiful, but you see, they're irrelevant here.

ratbastid · 03-10-2008, 08:24 AM

EDIT: You know what? It's just not worth it.

Ustwo · 03-10-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an.

Yes there are a similarity between the old testament violence and the Qur'an.

Please stop thinking you are the authority in everything Islam.

This has been a fight for 1500 years for a reason, and it doesn't' take a genius to figure out that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't all be right, and as such 'they' hate us as we have.

roachboy · 03-10-2008, 08:44 AM

i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to.

i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit.
but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is.

Ustwo · 03-10-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to.

i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit.
but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is.

Your posts suck ass too roachboy. If you want to call my posting horseshit lose the moderator tag.

Edit: and Ill state when the usual liberal posse is mad at me, I must be onto something.

Jinn · 03-10-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qu'ran

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Excerpt K 9:073
Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them...

Excerpt K 47:035
Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...

Ironically enough, you proved the point of the OP. "They believe almost the same thing.." is true in good and in bad.

The Bible has just as much violence as the Qu'ran, as much as you'd like to link the book to the behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Holy Bible

# Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

# God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

# God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

# God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

# God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

# Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6

# Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

# God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24

# Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26

# God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7

# Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14

# God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13

# Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10

# Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31

# "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5

# "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7

# After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10

Check out the SAB's "Long list of cruelty and violence in the Bible" if you're so convinced that the Qu'ran is what causes children to strap bombs to themselves. If that were true, why wouldn't Bible-thumping Christians do the same?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

I suppose it fits less nicely into the conservative world-view when you have to accept that the Bible encourages as much violence as Islam does.

Punk.of.Ages · 03-10-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I've posted it in philosophy because I don't want this to turn into something about Iran vs. US or getting our of Iraq or Israel vs. Palestine

Mission failed, eh?

Baraka_Guru · 03-10-2008, 09:19 AM

This whole thread is a misattributation.

"They" don't hate Christians so much as they hate imperialists.

The essential topic is interesting though.

roachboy · 03-10-2008, 09:37 AM

how about this, then:

it is self-evident that there are a huge number of belligerent statements about others all the way through the biblical old testament. it would be a doable but tedious exercise to make lists of them, take them out of context and paste them up here. it is, as they say, a no-brainer.

but doing that says nothing---and i mean NOTHING--about modalities of actual belief or practice.

even without going into any specifics, this should be obvious: you are talking both in the case of christianity and islam about belief systems that incorporate HUGE populations--HUGE ranges of belief--and on that basis alone ANY sequence of sentence ripped from EITHER the bible or the koran is not going to provide you with a basis for saying anything--except that the adopting of attitudes articulated through these sentence is a POSSIBILITY. but that means nothing--not really: it doesn't explain how or why these possibilities might be taken up by particular individuals or organizations and not others--it doesn't say anything about context, whether anti-imperialist politics might get routed through these types of statements for tactical purposes for example. so these lists say NOTHING about how or why these possibilities might or might not be operationalised--so they say NOTHING about outcomes. and these lists do not even get CLOSE to enabling you to talk about the range of beliefs within communities--what they do is to enable a superficial kind of politics of gesture. that's it. this is obvious--self-evident--if you think about what you're doing at all.

sadly, this cuts in all directions: it is a problem for the thread as well.

so these lists, then, are therapeutic exercises that are entirely about the viewpoint of the person who assembles them---and in alot of cases about the weakness of the thinking behind that assemblage--so the lists, when you evaluate them, rebound onto questions of intent behind their assemblage.

and this is where the trouble lay, and this is why i say--and stand by--the claim that no. 3 is bottom-of-the-barrel tripe (like that better?)

and it is not obvious that islam entails the same kind of belief that christianity does, and so you are wrong even in assuming that it does.
it is really simple to find this out.
all you need is a little curiousity about modes of being that are not yours.

and i stand by the claim that the fact you feel authorized to post about something you neither know nor particularly seem to care about knowing is an embarrassment. but post away---it's your prerogative: i'm the last person to get in the way of that.

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yes there are a similarity between the old testament violence and the Qur'an.

... but instead of focusing on that, you tried to denigrate Islam by posting verses out of context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Please stop thinking you are the authority in everything Islam.

Please stop posting verses out of context and jacking all my threads. And I do know more about Islam than you choose to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This has been a fight for 1500 years for a reason, and it doesn't' take a genius to figure out that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't all be right, and as such 'they' hate us as we have.

This is a prime example of the threadjack. This is not a political thread. Some of what would have been discussed could have had an effect on politics, but it was intended to be philosophy. Which is why it's in TFPhilosophy, not TFPolitics.

People getting pissed at you has nothing to do with your politics, U2. It doesn't have anything to do with being "onto something". It's your malicious way of posting. You see something you don't like, you don't understand, or that frightens you and you put up your wall and bring out your guns. You kick and scream and threadjack until you're either sent to the corner or the thread gets closed. That kind of behavior damages our community. While I'm sure you're aware of this on some level, I feel I need to make it crystal clear.

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 11:34 AM

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

Jinn · 03-10-2008, 11:49 AM

Powerclown, that's a terrible threadjack.

But since you did it, I'm allowed to reply.

A terribly made (albeit true) Youtube - Why do atheists care about religion?

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 12:02 PM

That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America.

Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal.

Baraka_Guru · 03-10-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal.

It would be more accurate to say "similarities in the nutritional value of pork and veal." Which would be more legitimate, but still too inaccurate an analogy.

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

As an atheist, I shouldn't know more about religion than religious people. And yet, here we are.

Not only that, but I wasn't born a "vegetarian", and had more time exploring different meats than most people before I settled on vegetarianism. I was born eating pork (Christianity), but then studied beef (Judaism), lamb (Islam), chicken (Hinduism), fish (Taoism), etc. So you see I may even be uniquely qualified to compare, considering many people have not dabbled.

What has struck me is that people seem to think that Christianity and Islam are at odds so very much. From my perspective, they're simply variations on the theme of Abrahamism, but even from the perspective of a Christian, if you line them up side by side, the similarities are staggering. This thread is about studying the similarities from a theological or philosophical standpoint, so as to educate and explore.

Can we get this back on track now, please?

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

It would be more accurate to say "similarities in the nutritional value of pork and veal." Which would be more legitimate, but still too inaccurate an analogy.

Right, how about the similarities in the molecular stucture of the dna between pork and veal. Would that be even more legitimate for ya?

Jinn · 03-10-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America.

You obviously didn't watch the whole thing.

Quote:

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

This is what it was in response to. Not Willravel, not the OP. Your threadjack.

There's a damned good reason to be concerned about religion as an atheist.

03-08-2008, 10:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru In the 6th percentile Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto	For those who like to read Birth: And she (Mary) who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the nations. —Qur'an, 21:91 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs —Qur'an, 23:50 When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead. —Sahih Bukhari, 4:54:506 Death: O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court... —Qur'an, 3:55 And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him... —Qur'an, 3:144 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. —Qur'an, 4:157 Second Coming: And when Allah said: O Jesus, I am going to terminate the period (or give you death or take you back) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. —Qur'an, 3:55 And when Allah will say: O Jesus son of Mary! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. —Qur'an, 5:116 And peace on me (Jesus) on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. —Qur'an, 19:33 __________________ "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer." —"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." —"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

03-09-2008, 10:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes Join Date: Apr 2003	[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them... Excerpt K 8:012 Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. Excerpt K 9:029 Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. Excerpt K 9:073 Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them... Excerpt K 47:035 Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works... And on, and on, and on...... Its nicely old testament. But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-09-2008, 10:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an. __________________ ɯǝɥʇ ǝʌlos uɐɔ ǝʍ ʇɐɥʇ ǝɔuɐɹouƃı ɥƃnoɹɥʇ ʇou sı ʇı 'sɯǝlqoɹd ǝʇɐǝɹɔ uɐɔ ǝƃpǝlʍouʞ ɟı

03-10-2008, 08:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago	i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to. i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit. but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-10-2008, 09:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru In the 6th percentile Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Toronto	This whole thread is a misattributation. "They" don't hate Christians so much as they hate imperialists. The essential topic is interesting though. __________________ "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. [...] In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer." —"Politics and the English Language," George Orwell "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." —"Burnt Norton," Four Quartets, T. S. Eliot

03-10-2008, 08:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Yonder	EDIT: You know what? It's just not worth it.

03-10-2008, 09:37 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago	how about this, then: it is self-evident that there are a huge number of belligerent statements about others all the way through the biblical old testament. it would be a doable but tedious exercise to make lists of them, take them out of context and paste them up here. it is, as they say, a no-brainer. but doing that says nothing---and i mean NOTHING--about modalities of actual belief or practice. even without going into any specifics, this should be obvious: you are talking both in the case of christianity and islam about belief systems that incorporate HUGE populations--HUGE ranges of belief--and on that basis alone ANY sequence of sentence ripped from EITHER the bible or the koran is not going to provide you with a basis for saying anything--except that the adopting of attitudes articulated through these sentence is a POSSIBILITY. but that means nothing--not really: it doesn't explain how or why these possibilities might be taken up by particular individuals or organizations and not others--it doesn't say anything about context, whether anti-imperialist politics might get routed through these types of statements for tactical purposes for example. so these lists say NOTHING about how or why these possibilities might or might not be operationalised--so they say NOTHING about outcomes. and these lists do not even get CLOSE to enabling you to talk about the range of beliefs within communities--what they do is to enable a superficial kind of politics of gesture. that's it. this is obvious--self-evident--if you think about what you're doing at all. sadly, this cuts in all directions: it is a problem for the thread as well. so these lists, then, are therapeutic exercises that are entirely about the viewpoint of the person who assembles them---and in alot of cases about the weakness of the thinking behind that assemblage--so the lists, when you evaluate them, rebound onto questions of intent behind their assemblage. and this is where the trouble lay, and this is why i say--and stand by--the claim that no. 3 is bottom-of-the-barrel tripe (like that better?) and it is not obvious that islam entails the same kind of belief that christianity does, and so you are wrong even in assuming that it does. it is really simple to find this out. all you need is a little curiousity about modes of being that are not yours. and i stand by the claim that the fact you feel authorized to post about something you neither know nor particularly seem to care about knowing is an embarrassment. but post away---it's your prerogative: i'm the last person to get in the way of that. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 03-10-2008 at 09:43 AM.

03-10-2008, 11:34 AM	#15 (permalink)
powerclown Manic Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Detroit, MI	For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion. __________________ "Well, I ask a psychopath, I get that kind of an answer." --Woody Allen

03-10-2008, 11:49 AM	#16 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Join Date: May 2005	Powerclown, that's a terrible threadjack. But since you did it, I'm allowed to reply. A terribly made (albeit true) Youtube - Why do atheists care about religion? __________________ If you struggle with something your entire life, try harder. Awareness without action is worthless, and failure is not an accident.

03-10-2008, 12:02 PM	#17 (permalink)
powerclown Manic Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Detroit, MI	That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America. Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal. __________________ "Well, I ask a psychopath, I get that kind of an answer." --Woody Allen