Charlatan

Wow. That's just a little hyperbolic, no?

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tisonlyi

Well, I'd prefer my revolutions conducted in the mould of Gandhi rather than the some of the transcendent, violent prescriptions of Franz Fanon (a la Che).

Che as genocidal maniac - No. Just no.
Che as maniac - Absolutely not, you need to read something he wrote, rather than what is wrote about him.
Che in comparison to Hitler or Mao - Baseless as well as ridiculous.

Che used violence as PART of what he was part of building and wanting for humanity. Not genocidal, maniacal violence, but the using of arms to further political objectives.

It shouldn't take you too long to think of some of your heroes who did likewise.

Also, as an aside, you might like to ponder on whether the US coup against the Arbenz government in 1954 directly led to the galvanizing and motivating of a young Che into the revolutionary that much of the world embraces as a hero - albeit flawed.

Blowback. I wonder what's coming down the line now?

Directed in the Holy name of Jesus and The Lord.

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Baraka_Guru

Thanks for saying this first.

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jorgelito

Perhaps, but it depends on your perspective really.
-----Added 9/9/2008 at 12 : 56 : 43-----
I agree. In regards to George Bush, I think it would be fair to study whether he was a terrorist and war criminal or a voice for democracy.

But in regards to Che, that was my point. I thought it was ridiculous the way people are tossing his salad around here without regard to his atrocious history. His very image offends me in the same manner that Mao, Hitler et al offend me.
-----Added 9/9/2008 at 01 : 04 : 49-----
I respectfully disagree. Che murdered natives, women and children indiscriminately. I don't buy the "Che used violence as PART of what he was part of building and wanting for humanity. Not genocidal, maniacal violence, but the using of arms to further political objectives." His violence was still wrong and criminal in my opinion. He's no better than Osama et al in that regard. Those guys do the same thing. Che used violence in the "Don't agree with me, then die" manner.

Some of my heroes like MLK Jr, Gandhi, and Mother Teresa are nowhere near similar to Che. Maybe I missed your point there?

In any event, I think clearly Che leaves a lot to be desired.
-----Added 9/9/2008 at 01 : 10 : 04-----
Yes, I agree, me too.

I don't understand this portion of your post.

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host

roachboy, I suspect the reaction you provoked.....yes, provoked....happened because, through no fault of your own..... you inserted your opinions and briedly blocked the "tractor beam", from the intended target of "the Mighty Wurlitzer".

Unless you live in an area like I live in....AND listen to at least an hour each day of conservative, evangelicized Salem Comm. "talk" radio, you probably are not conscious of the CONSTANT reinforcement a significant protion of the country receives each and every day....."liberal Hollywood elite.... extreme left democrat party.... here in the greatest country on god's green earth..... liberals hate america and christian values, we are defending the scanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, Bush will be regarded as one of the greatest presidents....."

Michelle Malkin, as hard as it is for us to believe....has one of the most popular weblogs on the internet.....#3, according to these rankings...... here are three examples of her campaign against "Che", linking him to Obama and Hollywood "elite". Then there is a bigger list of her commentaries which include "Che"...... and, from what we see, it works.... it's about linking "liberals" to "the otther", the demon, "Che" !

They spew this "stuff", as I'd imagine batshit crazy people would, roachboy, and they win elections.... It's almost as if they've convinced themselves "Che" was a more brutal terrorist and villainous thug than....Menachem Begin.

Charlatan

I think the point about Che is that yes, he used violence. But to describe him in the terms you have used seems a bit over the top. Would you describe George Bush and his administration in those terms? Their regime change in Iraq is not all that different when it gets down to it.

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jorgelito

I think that's a fair point. I would disagree that it is necessarily over the top though. It all depends on who you ask. The damage that Che and Fidel wrought on the continent was so severe, I'm sure there are many who do not regard Che as a "hero".

In regards to George Bush: It's too early or too close to tell at this point. I think in 20 years or so, when we look back, we will be able to analyze and come to some sort of conclusion better. My guess is that history will not look favorably upon George Bush or his administration but on the other hand, there will be some sort of romanticisation of his "legacy" as well. I think you may be too kind to GW. In addition to Iraq, there is the Guantanamo debacle, Afghanistan campaign, poor handling of the economy, strained relations with our allies and others, Axis of Evil, etc... Give it some time. We will be able to put things into perspective. Cheney, Rove, maybe even poor Condi will also be included in that judgment. For better or worse.

Only time will tell.

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to the one that endures to the end."

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tisonlyi

Blowback - The unintended consequences to friendly forces following an action upon an enemy.

i.e. The US overthrows the democratically elected, leftist Arbenz government of Guatemala in 1954 where Che happens to be at that time. Before the coup, Che is looking to further his medical career, with a side interest in revolution. After the coup, Che is fully committed to a productive, anti-colonial revolutionary career. That US empire more than most.

If the US hadn't gone and done the bidding of United Fruit by reinstating their (neo-)colonialist grip over Guatemala via a coup, would one of the the most famous men who described the what, how, where, when and why of taking on US imperialism - not to mention inspiration - ... would Che have even become a revolutionary?

Debatable.

As for wondering what is coming down the line now... well, where to start.

The US is currently at war in bloody wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, where bombing civilians, women and children have been a motif.
Threatening war against Iran.
Heavily posturing against and provoking Russia. (Issues with Ukraine, Poland, Georgia, The Baltic States, the rest of central asia, oil, etc)
Props up economically, supplies militarily and protects Israel diplomatically.
Still has massive numbers of troops deployed in South Korea and Japan, despite massive protests.
Has recently had a coup succeed only to fail within days in Venezuela.
Is meddling in the politics of Bolivia to try and provoke secession by - surprise, surprise - the oil rich elements of the country.
Colombia. Props up economically, protects diplomatically, supplies militarily and praises internationally what is known to be a Failed State. It isn't in the US-sponsored top 10 anymore, but really...

The list goes on.

A coup sparked Che.
Previous Afghani and Saudi adventures sparked Bin Laden.

Iraq is a nightmare, it could easily result in attacks on "The Homeland" down the line. Certain people have been only too happy to recruit Jesus into their war, hence, down the line, potential blowback in the Holy name of Jesus.

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jorgelito

Ah ok, got it. Thanks for the clarification.

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"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

Charlatan

jorgelito: I would agree that "romanticizing" and "commodifying" Che is a bit odd (and in the latter case, highly ironic). But I would say that about most historical figures.

When I was asking if a comparison can be made to George Bush and his Admin, I was really just asking about the ends and the means part of the equation rather than the pop culture legacy.

That said, I can certainly see why a certain left leaning crowd might view Che with misty eyes. He presents a very heroic figure... an intellectual and a doctor who not only talked but took action. Yes, he was a guerrilla warrior who killed people (it's difficult to call him a terrorist as he largely fought against soldiers). But you can also argue that he was an idealist and a nation builder -- someone who viewed the colonial, imperial and corporatist dictatorships of Latin America and Africa as something that could only be overthrown through armed struggle.

It's the funny thing about most historical figures, they are never black and white. Some of them did some pretty awful things.

For me, Che stands as someone who stands firm against the worst aspects of US imperialism. It's also important to remember that he was a man of his time. I would like to think that if he were alive today he would be working with the democratically elected governments of Latin America that are currently struggling to rid themselves of decades of negative US influence (see: Boliva, Argentian, Venezuela, etc.).

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ottopilot

Yes... the iron fist of the evil U.S. Empire. U. S. Imperialism... another fashionable cliché. Wears well with Ché t-shirts, blogging, and driving a Prius. Rage against the machine! ... dude.

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tisonlyi

Care to set out, maybe in another thread, how you fit US aims, actions and modern history into a world view that doesn't include "US Imperialism"?

It's easy to mock, shake your head, etc, but I really can't see how anyone can look at history and the current state of affairs and judge the US as anything but an imperialist power, selfishly, ruthlessly abusing it's dominant or hegemonic power crush other views on how life can be lived, or who should be telling them what to do.

Please, show me the error of my ways.

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roachboy

thanks host--i didn't know about the new revisionist use values being appended to che by the right-machine. this now makes some sense as another corridor in the funhouse of political/politicized signifiers which are always available to live through should reality get to be a burden.

jorgelito---i have no particularly nostalgic ideas about che guevara--but you don't need to be attached to find the ongoing conservative revision of the past to be disturbing.

watch chris marker's "le fond de l'air est rouge"

Fond de l'air est rouge, Le (1977)

for a crash introduction to the history that you've obviously been lied to about.
without an assumption that we're talking about the same thing, no discussion is possible.

=======================

gee otto---> there can't be an american empire or any problems attending neoliberalism if you don't look, if you dismiss any criticism as "fashionable"
there's nothing but "america-bashing" if you don't look, if you do no research, if you watch tv.

there's more going on with you that this---what's the point of going one-dimensional, particularly when you know that you're in a position you can't defend?

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it make you sick.

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Charlatan

I know it sounds cliché but if you read your Latin American history, it's there. Off the top of my head...

Guatamala 1954 - the US supports and funds the overthrow the democratically elected government of President Jacobo Arbenz on the orders of the United Fruit Company

Brazil 1964 - the US supports and funds the overthrow the democratically elected government of President Joao Goulart

Chilean Coup of 1973 - the US supports and funds the overthrow of the democratically elected Salvador Allende government.

Argentinian Coup of 1976 - the US supports and funds the overthrow of the democratically elected Peron government (LINK)

Venezuela 2002 attempted coup - the supports and funds the attempted coup of the democratically elected Hugo Chavez government.

You will note that each of these governments is left leaning (to various degrees). Most were pretty much aiming for the type of "socialism" that is practised in Scandinavia. This was deemed counter to US interests.

The above list is a sample from a much larger list... and if you just poke below the surface you find the US supporting and training the people behind these coups in everything from Economics and Torture to Massive Loans and Counter-Insurgency.

I am sorry that it has become a cliche but the mainstream American view of history is funny that way.

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Poppinjay

Watch out, America's hat, or Canada's basement will overthrow whoever wins in October.

Among the latin doings, count Cuba pre-Fidel among them. Cuba was rife with American criminal activity, aided by the American government. We freaking planned an execution gone wrong in order to return Cuba to the hands of mobsters.

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dlish

i coulda have sworn that you were talking about ayman al zawahiri

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host