Martial Law in US begins October 1 - Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy and Political Discussion

Willravel · 09-24-2008, 12:34 AM

I've taken issue with the militarization of police that's happened over my lifetime, but having an active military unit (3rd infantry divisions 1st combat team) in the United States for the purposes of crowd control would, I believe, technically qualify as indefinite martial law. The pevious case of martial law in the US was during Katrina when local law enforcement was unable to deal with the aftermath, but Blackwater contractors being used and repeated reports of civil rights abuses in that instance suggest a very dangerous situation we might be headed into.

I'm suddenly very, very uncomfortable.

What are your thoughts on having an active military unit in the United States for an unstated amount of time, supposedly for "crowd control"?

Aside from the aforementioned discomfort, my mind is telling me about a thousand horrible things that this could mean. The most frightening, obviously, is a case in which Bush is somehow able to remain in power, but I keep having to tell myself that's just paranoia.

I suppose a more reasonable conclusion would be that this is further evidence that protesting is not going to be tolerated. After the creation of free speech zones, I had an idea of what might happen to the right of free speech and assembly, but I must say I didn't expect the military.

My last concern is that the military has weapons unavailable to police that could potentially be much, much more dangerous to protesters. My heart aches at the thought of a man or woman being hurt or killed while trying to get their voice heard by the powers that be (or rather the powers that simply don't care).

October 1st will be a sad day for my country.

Cynthetiq · 09-24-2008, 02:10 AM

Why? Because some talking head said to be afraid of something or someone?

Quote:

View: Brigade homeland tours start Oct. 1
Source: Armytimes
posted with the TFP thread generator

Brigade homeland tours start Oct. 1
Brigade homeland tours start Oct. 1

3rd Infantry’s 1st BCT trains for a new dwell-time mission. Helping ‘people at home’ may become a permanent part of the active Army
By Gina Cavallaro - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Sep 8, 2008 6:15:06 EDT

The 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team has spent 35 of the last 60 months in Iraq patrolling in full battle rattle, helping restore essential services and escorting supply convoys.

Now they’re training for the same mission — with a twist — at home.

Beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months, the 1st BCT will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command, as an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks.

It is not the first time an active-duty unit has been tapped to help at home. In August 2005, for example, when Hurricane Katrina unleashed hell in Mississippi and Louisiana, several active-duty units were pulled from various posts and mobilized to those areas.

But this new mission marks the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to NorthCom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities.

After 1st BCT finishes its dwell-time mission, expectations are that another, as yet unnamed, active-duty brigade will take over and that the mission will be a permanent one.

“Right now, the response force requirement will be an enduring mission. How the [Defense Department] chooses to source that and whether or not they continue to assign them to NorthCom, that could change in the future,” said Army Col. Louis Vogler, chief of NorthCom future operations. “Now, the plan is to assign a force every year.”

The command is at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, Colo., but the soldiers with 1st BCT, who returned in April after 15 months in Iraq, will operate out of their home post at Fort Stewart, Ga., where they’ll be able to go to school, spend time with their families and train for their new homeland mission as well as the counterinsurgency mission in the war zones.

Stop-loss will not be in effect, so soldiers will be able to leave the Army or move to new assignments during the mission, and the operational tempo will be variable.

Don’t look for any extra time off, though. The at-home mission does not take the place of scheduled combat-zone deployments and will take place during the so-called dwell time a unit gets to reset and regenerate after a deployment.

The 1st of the 3rd is still scheduled to deploy to either Iraq or Afghanistan in early 2010, which means the soldiers will have been home a minimum of 20 months by the time they ship out.

In the meantime, they’ll learn new skills, use some of the ones they acquired in the war zone and more than likely will not be shot at while doing any of it.

They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack.

Training for homeland scenarios has already begun at Fort Stewart and includes specialty tasks such as knowing how to use the “jaws of life” to extract a person from a mangled vehicle; extra medical training for a CBRNE incident; and working with U.S. Forestry Service experts on how to go in with chainsaws and cut and clear trees to clear a road or area.

The 1st BCT’s soldiers also will learn how to use “the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded,” 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.

“It’s a new modular package of nonlethal capabilities that they’re fielding. They’ve been using pieces of it in Iraq, but this is the first time that these modules were consolidated and this package fielded, and because of this mission we’re undertaking we were the first to get it.”

The package includes equipment to stand up a hasty road block; spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and, beanbag bullets.

“I was the first guy in the brigade to get Tasered,” said Cloutier, describing the experience as “your worst muscle cramp ever — times 10 throughout your whole body.

“I’m not a small guy, I weigh 230 pounds ... it put me on my knees in seconds.”

The brigade will not change its name, but the force will be known for the next year as a CBRNE Consequence Management Response Force, or CCMRF (pronounced “sea-smurf”).

“I can’t think of a more noble mission than this,” said Cloutier, who took command in July. “We’ve been all over the world during this time of conflict, but now our mission is to take care of citizens at home ... and depending on where an event occurred, you’re going home to take care of your home town, your loved ones.”

While soldiers’ combat training is applicable, he said, some nuances don’t apply.

“If we go in, we’re going in to help American citizens on American soil, to save lives, provide critical life support, help clear debris, restore normalcy and support whatever local agencies need us to do, so it’s kind of a different role,” said Cloutier, who, as the division operations officer on the last rotation, learned of the homeland mission a few months ago while they were still in Iraq.

Some brigade elements will be on call around the clock, during which time they’ll do their regular marksmanship, gunnery and other deployment training. That’s because the unit will continue to train and reset for the next deployment, even as it serves in its CCMRF mission.

Should personnel be needed at an earthquake in California, for example, all or part of the brigade could be scrambled there, depending on the extent of the need and the specialties involved.

Other branches included
The active Army’s new dwell-time mission is part of a NorthCom and DOD response package.

Active-duty soldiers will be part of a force that includes elements from other military branches and dedicated National Guard Weapons of Mass Destruction-Civil Support Teams.

A final mission rehearsal exercise is scheduled for mid-September at Fort Stewart and will be run by Joint Task Force Civil Support, a unit based out of Fort Monroe, Va., that will coordinate and evaluate the interservice event.

In addition to 1st BCT, other Army units will take part in the two-week training exercise, including elements of the 1st Medical Brigade out of Fort Hood, Texas, and the 82nd Combat Aviation Brigade from Fort Bragg, N.C.

There also will be Air Force engineer and medical units, the Marine Corps Chemical, Biological Initial Reaction Force, a Navy weather team and members of the Defense Logistics Agency and the Defense Threat Reduction Agency.

One of the things Vogler said they’ll be looking at is communications capabilities between the services.

“It is a concern, and we’re trying to check that and one of the ways we do that is by having these sorts of exercises. Leading up to this, we are going to rehearse and set up some of the communications systems to make sure we have interoperability,” he said.

“I don’t know what America’s overall plan is — I just know that 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there are soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines that are standing by to come and help if they’re called,” Cloutier said. “It makes me feel good as an American to know that my country has dedicated a force to come in and help the people at home.”

seems like they are trained on non-leathal packages for control.

seems like they are going to have specific tasks for domestic deployment uses that seem to reasonably cover domestic issues "They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack."

Jozrael · 09-24-2008, 04:45 AM

I find it hilarious that they will be called 'sea-smurfs'.

And @Will: Honestly, I support the use of free speech zones in many examples. Notably what that church was doing by picketing funerals for American soldiers. Screaming at their family members that they were going to hell because they were defending a country that defended homosexuality.

:\.

roachboy · 09-24-2008, 05:23 AM

i don't think this is a good idea at all. at all.
it doesn't freak me out--it is just a bad bad idea.
one of the few things that has guaranteed such illusion of political freedom as we have is the separation of interal spheres from the purview of the military.
i like these illusions of political freedom.
this is a bad bad idea.

dc_dux · 09-24-2008, 06:00 AM

When Bush established and activated a new "Northern Command" in 2002, it raised questions in my mind.

NORTHCOM'S mission:

Quote:

USNORTHCOM’s civil support mission includes domestic disaster relief operations that occur during fires, hurricanes, floods and earthquakes. Support also includes counter-drug operations and managing the consequences of a terrorist event employing a weapon of mass destruction. The command provides assistance to a Lead Agency when tasked by DoD. Per the Posse Comitatus Act, military forces can provide civil support, but cannot become directly involved in law enforcement.

Isnt that why we have a National Guard, FBI, US Boarder Patrol, state and local law enforcement.....

ratbastid · 09-24-2008, 06:01 AM

The division between military and police is a doctrine with a lot of standing and precedent in our country. To have that doctrine shattered, especially at a time when people are beginning to reject the governmental response to a massive financial crisis, is alarming.

Charlatan · 09-24-2008, 06:09 AM

Another example of the need to protect the market for the privatized military that you have created. Once the withdrawal from Iraq starts to happen you will need to find something for these Industries to do.

ottopilot · 09-24-2008, 07:47 AM

I see slippery slopes all around. Hopefully the right people are paying attention (including the citizenry).

samcol · 09-24-2008, 08:21 AM

Isn't it bad enough that we have to put up with cops in darth vader uniforms at these large events? How are they going to be more effective than what the cops already do besides escalating the level of force? Also, I thought this responsibility was on the state governors and the national guard in times of crisis.

The military has no place doing this and is in violation of Posse Comitatus.

I think the real question is what are they getting ready for? Are they expecting an economic collapse, another terrorist attack, or some 'electioneering' protests?

I assume they aren't trained in domestic laws either. How does that even work? Do they perform and arrest or just harass people if they see them doing something they think is wrong? Do they even have to have warrants?

This is very scary.

ratbastid · 09-24-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

I see slippery slopes all around. Hopefully the right people are paying attention (including the citizenry).

Have you been to America? Well, maybe we can get Ryan Seacrest to talk about it.

Incidentally: Posse Comitatus Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Willravel · 09-24-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Why? Because some talking head said to be afraid of something or someone?

Thinking for yourself may be something new for some, but not for me. But you already know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

seems like they are trained on non-leathal packages for control.

So are the ATF and FBI, but Waco was sure a mess. I'm not saying that this will lead to another Waco necessarily, just being trained for non-lethal strategies does not absolutely prevent lethal strategies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

seems like they are going to have specific tasks for domestic deployment uses that seem to reasonably cover domestic issues "They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack."

I've been in some areas that might have qualified as "civil unrest". I cannot imagine a situation where having military on the scene would make anyone, protester or not, more safe.

I wasn't alive for Kent state, but I wonder if other people were having this conversation as the National Guard was called.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael

And @Will: Honestly, I support the use of free speech zones in many examples. Notably what that church was doing by picketing funerals for American soldiers. Screaming at their family members that they were going to hell because they were defending a country that defended homosexuality.

I don't like members of Westbro Baptist Church any more than you do, but not liking their message leading to removing their right to free speech doesn't seem like a good precedent to set. And I don't expect that these troops will be at WBC protests, more likely they will be at the kinds of protests at the DNC and RNC this year.

MSD · 09-24-2008, 09:46 AM

I don't see why anything more than the National Guard should be needed for emergencies. Living in fear like this is a self-perpetuating cycle and I'm more concerned with the military illegally performing law enforcement functions (likely against Americans) than civil unrest or terror attack.

dc_dux · 09-24-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Another example of the need to protect the market for the privatized military that you have created. Once the withdrawal from Iraq starts to happen you will need to find something for these Industries to do.

Once the withdrawal from Iraq starts?

Blackwater private security forces on the streets of New Orleans under a $30 million contract with FEMA.

Quote:

The men from Blackwater USA arrived in New Orleans right after Katrina hit. The company known for its private security work guarding senior US diplomats in Iraq beat the federal government and most aid organizations to the scene in another devastated Gulf. About 150 heavily armed Blackwater troops dressed in full battle gear spread out into the chaos of New Orleans. Officially, the company boasted of its forces "join[ing] the hurricane relief effort." But its men on the ground told a different story.

Some patrolled the streets in SUVs with tinted windows and the Blackwater logo splashed on the back; others sped around the French Quarter in an unmarked car with no license plates. They congregated on the corner of St. James and Bourbon in front of a bar called 711, where Blackwater was establishing a makeshift headquarters. From the balcony above the bar, several Blackwater guys cleared out what had apparently been someone's apartment. They threw mattresses, clothes, shoes and other household items from the balcony to the street below. They draped an American flag from the balcony's railing. More than a dozen troops from the 82nd Airborne Division stood in formation on the street watching the action....

...When asked what authority they were operating under, one guy said, "We're on contract with the Department of Homeland Security." Then, pointing to one of his comrades, he said, "He was even deputized by the governor of the state of Louisiana. We can make arrests and use lethal force if we deem it necessary." The man then held up the gold Louisiana law enforcement badge he wore around his neck. Blackwater spokesperson Anne Duke also said the company has a letter from Louisiana officials authorizing its forces to carry loaded weapons.

"This vigilantism demonstrates the utter breakdown of the government," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. "These private security forces have behaved brutally, with impunity, in Iraq. To have them now on the streets of New Orleans is frightening and possibly illegal."

Blackwater Down

Cynosure · 09-24-2008, 10:24 AM

Well, so much for the people uniting and rising up against the Bush administration's $700 billion bail-out plan. This active unit of hardened combat veterans of the Iraq war, now designated to deal with possible (if not probable) civil unrest and crowd control in their home country, will serve well if that bail-out plan doesn't work, where not only is each and every taxpayer left owing the government around $7,000, but our financial system collapses and we're left teetering on the brink of another Great Depression.

pan6467 · 09-24-2008, 11:06 AM

First, I think this is a scare tactic to get more Obama support and try to scare people into not voting for McCain. The one video the entire date on it is 2000. that was Clinton's presidency, not Bush's. Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. were during Clinton, not Bush. So don't buy the Dem bullshit it's just the "other party" to fear. This is a great scare tactic to get people worked up and to vote for who the creators of the tactic want them to.

If this bailout doesn't work and there is a very strong possibility it won't, we may need martial law because during riots and unrest, innocent people get hurt, robbed and killed.

I said 4 yrs ago Bush would make sure there was no election and people, even those proclaiming "Martial Law 10/1" laughed and said impossible." Still laughing?

I believe that people control their own destinies. If enough believe we are doomed and this will happen, then people will do things to make sure it happens. If people see how fear can manipulate them and choose not to go apeshit and crazy.... then it won't happen. The whole self fulfilling prophecy thing.

Finally, I have stated over and over, this election will destroy the party of the person in the office. BOTH candidates are neither qualified to handle this and are surrounded by nutcases wanting power and NOT interested in truly helping the nation rebuild.

Obama is set up for failure if elected.... hmmm the first black president 2 years into office leads us into our worst economic disaster? Doesn't look good. McCain? The GOP takes the fall they deserve to and in 2012 maybe we get someone like an FDR that can truly rebuild and have vision.

roachboy · 09-24-2008, 11:41 AM

wait:

so first you're claiming that an action which is the prerogative of the administration, which is the bush administration, which is, last time i checked, a republican administration with a demonstrable history of trying to govern from inside a state of emergency---which is not good if you like any trace of that democracy thing---is somehow imputable to obama's campaign? how does that work?

and then, further down, you claim:
if the melting down of the derivatives industry continues, it FOLLOWS that martial law would be a possibility?

which you then pin on the bush administration.

what gives?
could you explain your argument better?

ottopilot · 09-24-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Have you been to America? Well, maybe we can get Ryan Seacrest to talk about it.

Incidentally: Posse Comitatus Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's your point... what are your referring to ratbastid? Why the dis with the Ryan Seacrest comment?

ratbastid · 09-24-2008, 12:16 PM

Just saying, my hope that the American people will ever wake the fuck up is very very small at this point. But perhaps we can sugar coat it with American Idol or something.

Jozrael · 09-24-2008, 12:29 PM

I was just saying that free speech has its limits will. You shouldn't be able to force yourself on others. Posting something in a newspaper? Not forcing yourself on them. Screaming at them at a funeral? Bit different. I think protesting at a convention is something in between...and I understand giving the people a (reasonable) place to voice their opinions. Should they be allowed in the convention hall to hassle the speakers? I hope not for both sides. Should they be allowed right at the entrance to physically impede/scream in the face of people attending? I disagree as well. Across the street would be fine.

However, I'm worried that it'll be like a mile away :P xD.

And yes, slippery slope on this argument applies in full force, I'm aware :x

Willravel · 09-24-2008, 12:40 PM

The free speech zones are often really, really far away. It's not a matter of hassling the speakers, it's a matter of being completely off the radar. Out of camera view is unacceptable, it's censorship.

America is supposed to be a free speech zone.

dc_dux · 09-24-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

First, I think this is a scare tactic to get more Obama support and try to scare people into not voting for McCain. The one video the entire date on it is 2000. that was Clinton's presidency, not Bush's. Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. were during Clinton, not Bush. So don't buy the Dem bullshit it's just the "other party" to fear. This is a great scare tactic to get people worked up and to vote for who the creators of the tactic want them to.

Huh...this is all about Obama?

The one video was in 2000? ....talking about forces returning from Iraq to be deployed to NORTHCOM? No...I dont think so!

The establishment and activation of NORTHCOM was by Clinton? No...I dont think so!

You've outdone yourself with this one!

Jozrael · 09-24-2008, 03:51 PM

I think out of camera view is fine :s. If I'm at the RNC and some crazy liberals want to impugn my candidate, they can do it outside. Vice versa if I was at the DNC with crazy conservatives. (I'm assuming these conventions are inside? I could be gravely mistaken). They detract from the message. THEIR message should

09-24-2008, 12:34 AM	#1 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	Martial Law in US begins October 1 I've taken issue with the militarization of police that's happened over my lifetime, but having an active military unit (3rd infantry divisions 1st combat team) in the United States for the purposes of crowd control would, I believe, technically qualify as indefinite martial law. The pevious case of martial law in the US was during Katrina when local law enforcement was unable to deal with the aftermath, but Blackwater contractors being used and repeated reports of civil rights abuses in that instance suggest a very dangerous situation we might be headed into. I'm suddenly very, very uncomfortable. What are your thoughts on having an active military unit in the United States for an unstated amount of time, supposedly for "crowd control"? Aside from the aforementioned discomfort, my mind is telling me about a thousand horrible things that this could mean. The most frightening, obviously, is a case in which Bush is somehow able to remain in power, but I keep having to tell myself that's just paranoia. I suppose a more reasonable conclusion would be that this is further evidence that protesting is not going to be tolerated. After the creation of free speech zones, I had an idea of what might happen to the right of free speech and assembly, but I must say I didn't expect the military. My last concern is that the military has weapons unavailable to police that could potentially be much, much more dangerous to protesters. My heart aches at the thought of a man or woman being hurt or killed while trying to get their voice heard by the powers that be (or rather the powers that simply don't care). October 1st will be a sad day for my country.

09-24-2008, 05:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago	i don't think this is a good idea at all. at all. it doesn't freak me out--it is just a bad bad idea. one of the few things that has guaranteed such illusion of political freedom as we have is the separation of interal spheres from the purview of the military. i like these illusions of political freedom. this is a bad bad idea. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-24-2008, 06:09 AM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Drinking Your Milkshake Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lion City	Another example of the need to protect the market for the privatized military that you have created. Once the withdrawal from Iraq starts to happen you will need to find something for these Industries to do. __________________ “I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization.” - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

09-24-2008, 07:47 AM	#8 (permalink)
ottopilot capstan flanging Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Waddy Peytona	I see slippery slopes all around. Hopefully the right people are paying attention (including the citizenry). __________________ "All the leaders of groups tend to be frauds. If they were not, it would be impossible for them to retain the allegiance of their dupes" - H.L. Mencken "continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it." - George Washington on political parties

09-24-2008, 08:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Indiana	Isn't it bad enough that we have to put up with cops in darth vader uniforms at these large events? How are they going to be more effective than what the cops already do besides escalating the level of force? Also, I thought this responsibility was on the state governors and the national guard in times of crisis. The military has no place doing this and is in violation of Posse Comitatus. I think the real question is what are they getting ready for? Are they expecting an economic collapse, another terrorist attack, or some 'electioneering' protests? I assume they aren't trained in domestic laws either. How does that even work? Do they perform and arrest or just harass people if they see them doing something they think is wrong? Do they even have to have warrants? This is very scary. __________________ These are the times that try men's souls. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered. Last edited by samcol; 09-24-2008 at 08:34 AM.

09-24-2008, 04:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
Jozrael Addict Join Date: Sep 2006	I find it hilarious that they will be called 'sea-smurfs'. And @Will: Honestly, I support the use of free speech zones in many examples. Notably what that church was doing by picketing funerals for American soldiers. Screaming at their family members that they were going to hell because they were defending a country that defended homosexuality. :\.

09-24-2008, 06:01 AM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Yonder	The division between military and police is a doctrine with a lot of standing and precedent in our country. To have that doctrine shattered, especially at a time when people are beginning to reject the governmental response to a massive financial crisis, is alarming.

09-24-2008, 09:46 AM	#12 (permalink)
MSD Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: CT	I don't see why anything more than the National Guard should be needed for emergencies. Living in fear like this is a self-perpetuating cycle and I'm more concerned with the military illegally performing law enforcement functions (likely against Americans) than civil unrest or terror attack.

09-24-2008, 10:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
Cynosure Crazy Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: the center of the multiverse	Well, so much for the people uniting and rising up against the Bush administration's $700 billion bail-out plan. This active unit of hardened combat veterans of the Iraq war, now designated to deal with possible (if not probable) civil unrest and crowd control in their home country, will serve well if that bail-out plan doesn't work, where not only is each and every taxpayer left owing the government around $7,000, but our financial system collapses and we're left teetering on the brink of another Great Depression.

09-24-2008, 11:06 AM	#15 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio USA	First, I think this is a scare tactic to get more Obama support and try to scare people into not voting for McCain. The one video the entire date on it is 2000. that was Clinton's presidency, not Bush's. Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. were during Clinton, not Bush. So don't buy the Dem bullshit it's just the "other party" to fear. This is a great scare tactic to get people worked up and to vote for who the creators of the tactic want them to. If this bailout doesn't work and there is a very strong possibility it won't, we may need martial law because during riots and unrest, innocent people get hurt, robbed and killed. I said 4 yrs ago Bush would make sure there was no election and people, even those proclaiming "Martial Law 10/1" laughed and said impossible." Still laughing? I believe that people control their own destinies. If enough believe we are doomed and this will happen, then people will do things to make sure it happens. If people see how fear can manipulate them and choose not to go apeshit and crazy.... then it won't happen. The whole self fulfilling prophecy thing. Finally, I have stated over and over, this election will destroy the party of the person in the office. BOTH candidates are neither qualified to handle this and are surrounded by nutcases wanting power and NOT interested in truly helping the nation rebuild. Obama is set up for failure if elected.... hmmm the first black president 2 years into office leads us into our worst economic disaster? Doesn't look good. McCain? The GOP takes the fall they deserve to and in 2012 maybe we get someone like an FDR that can truly rebuild and have vision. __________________ Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it. Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. You're just left with yourself all the time, whatever you do anyway. You've got to get down to your own God in your own temple. It's all down to you, mate. I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong. JOHN LENNON (1940-1980)

09-24-2008, 11:41 AM	#16 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: chicago	wait: so first you're claiming that an action which is the prerogative of the administration, which is the bush administration, which is, last time i checked, a republican administration with a demonstrable history of trying to govern from inside a state of emergency---which is not good if you like any trace of that democracy thing---is somehow imputable to obama's campaign? how does that work? and then, further down, you claim: if the melting down of the derivatives industry continues, it FOLLOWS that martial law would be a possibility? which you then pin on the bush administration. what gives? could you explain your argument better? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-24-2008, 12:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Yonder	Just saying, my hope that the American people will ever wake the fuck up is very very small at this point. But perhaps we can sugar coat it with American Idol or something.

09-24-2008, 12:29 PM	#19 (permalink)
Jozrael Addict Join Date: Sep 2006	I was just saying that free speech has its limits will. You shouldn't be able to force yourself on others. Posting something in a newspaper? Not forcing yourself on them. Screaming at them at a funeral? Bit different. I think protesting at a convention is something in between...and I understand giving the people a (reasonable) place to voice their opinions. Should they be allowed in the convention hall to hassle the speakers? I hope not for both sides. Should they be allowed right at the entrance to physically impede/scream in the face of people attending? I disagree as well. Across the street would be fine. However, I'm worried that it'll be like a mile away :P xD. And yes, slippery slope on this argument applies in full force, I'm aware :x

09-24-2008, 12:40 PM	#20 (permalink)
Willravel [wil-ruh-VEL] Join Date: Aug 2004	The free speech zones are often really, really far away. It's not a matter of hassling the speakers, it's a matter of being completely off the radar. Out of camera view is unacceptable, it's censorship. America is supposed to be a free speech zone.

09-24-2008, 03:51 PM	#22 (permalink)
Jozrael Addict Join Date: Sep 2006	I think out of camera view is fine :s. If I'm at the RNC and some crazy liberals want to impugn my candidate, they can do it outside. Vice versa if I was at the DNC with crazy conservatives. (I'm assuming these conventions are inside? I could be gravely mistaken). They detract from the message. THEIR message should