Wyodiver33

Hi all. What is better, and why? DVDR- or DVDR+? Thanks.

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I like stuff.

bendsley

Are you trying to start a flame war? I would say, start a discussion and not just ask questions.

But, to answer your question:

The DVD-R format

The DVD-R format was developed by Pioneer and first surfaced as the Pioneer S-101 DVD-R Authoring drive in 1997. The drive was specifically written as a write-once media for video applications, and writing data with the drive was not a priority.

Yes, there are two DVD-R formats: the DVD-R Authoring and the DVD-R General format.

The DVD-R Authoring format is a professional drive writing at either 1x or 2x (max) speeds. It is extremely expensive, costing several thousand dollars, and is geared towards professional use only, incorporating the allowance for CMF to replace DLT for replication. The first and only drives are the Pioneer S-101 (3.95GB DVD) and the Pioneer S-201 (3.95GB or 4.7GB DVD). The DVD-Authoring drives use different media and the laser uses a different writing frequency than DVD-R General.

The DVD-R General format, normally referred to as just DVD-R, was created for the consumer in early 2001. This also added the DVD-RW format and it is official known as a re-recordable disc, not a re-writable disc. Many Compaq, Packard Bell, Apple and Sony computers shipped DVD-R General drives in 2001 and early 2002, as the DVD+R format was not yet available and the DVD-R format thrived without any kind of competition.

The dash in DVD-R is a DASH MARK! It is absolutely not a MINUS sign! It is no more a "DVD minus R" than a CD-R is a "CD minus R". The entire "minus" mentality is a result of deceptive marketing by the DVD+RW Alliance.

DVD-Video information recorded onto a DVD-R General tends to have a playback compatibility of about 90 to 95 percent with all players that exist. This is the highest compatibility among all burned DVD formats.

The DVD-R format is the official format of the DVD Forum, the group that controls the specifications and licensing for the DVD logo. This quote was taken from their page on September 13th 2003: "Please note that the '+RW' format, also known as DVD+RW was neither developed nor approved by the DVD Forum. The approved recordable formats are DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM." You have probably seen the DVD logo:

The DVD+R format

Although fans of the DVD+R format hate to hear this, the DVD+R format is a rogue format, invented by greedy companies that were unwilling to pay royalties to the DVD Forum in order to use and develop the DVD-R format and/or use the DVD logo. The DVD+R format does not carry the DVD logo because it is not an official DVD format. Does this make it a bad format? No.

The DVD-R General and DVD+R formats have almost no differences.

The DVD+RW format was created with data usage in mind, as was claimed by the DVD+RW Alliance in 1997 while working on a 2.8GB disc that was scrapped in late 1999 in favor of producing true DVD-5 sizes. By the time the DVD+RW was released in late 2001, everybody that wanted a DVD writer already had one. Plus the DVD+RW were expensive like the DVD-RW discs, often costing $15 each, whereas the DVD-R discs went for as little as $5 each.

The DVD+R format did not surface until summer 2002, a year behind the DVD-R format, and still at twice the price of many DVD-R discs.

With the popularity of DVD-Video as the primary usage, the DVD+RW Alliance quickly dropped it's data-only attitude and went for the video market too, though initial media and drives had lousy compatibility ratings in the 50-60 percent range. To this day, the compatibility with DVD players is behind DVD-R.

DVD-Video information recorded onto a DVD+R tends to have a playback compatibility of about 85 to 90 percent with all players that exist. This is the second-highest compatibility among all burned DVD formats.

In order to assure higher compatibility with DVD-Video players, DVD+R format has bit-setting abilities, allowing the book type to be changed from DVD+R to DVD-ROM. While this does help the compatibility, it still does not allow the DVD+R format to exceed the DVD-R in video compatibility. This function is also not available on all DVD+R/RW drives.


The DVD±R format

This is not a format! This is merely a drive that incorporates both DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW burning abilities into the same piece of hardware. These are often called dual-format burners.


The DVD-RAM format

This drive is normally more expensive than other format burners, as are the media. It was developed as a data drive and remain so to this day, having a DVD-Video compatibility percentage that can be counted on fingers and toes. It was created by Panasonic is 1998 and is still mostly used for data and editing-only uses.

RAM discs were originally written inside cartridges. The first generation was sealed and had to be broken apart to extract the disc (if needed). The second generation had an open/close switch on the cart. With the advent of standalone DVD recorders, RAM discs came without cartridges.

The drive has advanced packet writing functions that allow if to be used much like an optical hard drive. Very efficient for data. But not recommended for normal video usage.

Video on a DVD-RAM is written in the VR format (and it creates VRO files). VR format is not compatible with normal DVD players, and it often uses odd-sized resolutions. DVD-RAM video is simply a poor choice.


Dual Layer Formats

Dual layer means that much like commercially pressed DVD-ROMs, these recordable discs have two layer of dye, almost doubling the size of older DVD5 format. This is a recordable DVD9 format.

The DVD+R DL (called "Double Layer" by the RW Alliance) drive is already available, and media is scarce. Early tests of the compatibility with existing DVD players and existing software is not good. It is the opinion of this author that once again the RW Alliance has rushed something out the door, only to fall flat on promises of "superior" technology. The DVD Forum does not make these same mistakes.


Format myths

Besides all the bad attitudes in which format is better, there are a few common myths that many people stubbornly insist on believing.

1. The most common myth is: "Newer players can play all formats."

Wrong! While it is more common now for new player to support both DVD-R and DVD+R media than players of the past, the issue is present even on the newest of players.

2. The next common myth is: "My (insert format here) disc didn't work in the player. I tried the other format and it worked. You're stupid and that compatibility percentage is just plain wrong."

Sorry genius, but the issue was more likely to be a media issue, not a format issue. Too many users buy the cheapest media around, and the DVD-R media made by Princo and CMC is often the reason the disc will not work.

3. This one is good too: "I saw the ABC TechnoDork site at www.somesite.com did a "scientific" test and came to the conclusion that the (insert format here) is better than the (other format here)."

I've only got one comeback to that, and it's with another quote. In Oliver Stone's movie JFK, Kevin Costner (playing attorney Jim Garrison) eloquently states that if you put enough scientists in a room for long enough, they'll probably be able to prove that an elephant can hang off a cliff with it's tail tied to a daisy. Remember that statistics are math, and that math can also be an art, as numbers can be made to prove anything you want, even if common sense dictates otherwise. At the moment, common sense and common sense tests dictate that the DVD-R currently has the highest compatibility with several percentage points.

4. This is the dumbest myth: "A DVD burner is just a CD burner with different firmware."

This one makes me laugh every time I see or hear it. The only thing DVD and CD have in common is the round shape. Beyond that, the media and hardware is entirely different. The CD and DVD burners use different hardware as well as different laser types and frequencies.

5. This is the next-dumbest myth: "The DVD+R and DVD-R drives and discs are the same. Why not just develop firmware and media that makes them all the same?"

This would be similar to saying that a cat and a dog are the same. While they do both have four legs and a tail, as well as rub and lick to show affection, they are definitely NOT the same. The hardware and media materials are completely different.

6. Aggravating format myth: "DVD+R/RW is better because it has Mt. Rainier (a.k.a. CAV recording a.k.a. lossless linking) protection on the drives."

Not really. Though available to hardware developers, the technology cannot be found in most DVD+R drives. Just like DVD-R, almost all DVD+R drives only use CLV writing. The superiority of CAV is also suspect, especially as it applies to video usage.

7. Another aggravating format myth: "DVD+RW is better because it has VR technology."

Big deal. The DVD-RW format does too. In fact, Pioneer invented VR technology on its first DVD-RW recording system back in 1999, when the DVD+R format was still not yet conceived.

Who makes the disc: Brand vs. Media ID

The thing that must be realized is that most media is produced by a relative small number of factories, located in several different places. These factories are present in Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Mexico, Hong Kong, India, and Ireland... maybe a few more, but not many. The best media generally comes from Japan and Singapore. The worst typically comes from Taiwan (in stores) and Hong Kong (online).

This being said, understand that the media brands means nothing. Apple is a great brand, but they do not make their own discs, instead outsourcing to MXL (Hitachi/Maxell), MCC (Mitsubishi Chemicals), and PVC (Pioneer). Verbatim became infamous by switching from high-quality MCC to ultra-cheap CMC (CMC Magnetics) media, although they have since returned to using MCC. Companies like Memorex, Fuji and Imation all outsource to media vendors.

Always be aware of fake media too. Fake media is normally sold in flea markets, on eBay and online. This fake media normally has no brand markings and the company being faked normally only sells branded discs.

It is the Media ID that is important, as it reveals the disc maker.


Media ID Quality Guide

The following list is in preference order. The best discs are near the top of the list. The discs at the bottom of the list are suitable only for a landfill. PVC is the best of all, LONGTEN is the worst of all, etc. Note: Some codes may be listed twice, done because a -R, -RW, +RW and +R by the same company may not be the same quality. The format is listed because of this.

1ST CLASS MEDIA
Almost flawless burns with 95-100% reliable results:
PVC = Pioneer = (-R)(-RW) ... media is no longer made
MXLRG01, MXLRG02 = Maxell = (-R)(-RW) ... be aware of fakes
TAIYOYUDEN, YUDEN, TYG01, TYG02 = Taiyo Yuden = (-R)(+R) ... be aware of fakes
MCC = Mitsubishi Chemicals = (-R)(-RW)(+R)(+RW)
TDKG02, TTG01 = TDK Corp = (-R)(-RW) ... be aware of fakes

2ND CLASS MEDIA
Decent discs, though not perfect, about 80-95% success rate:
PRODISC = Prodisc Media = (-R)(+R)
INFODISC = Infodisc Media = (+RW)
SONYD04 = Sony = (-R) ... be aware of fakes
RICOHJPN = Ritek or Ricoh = (+R)(+RW)
RITEK = Ritek = (+R)(-R)(-RW)(+RW)
OPTODISC = Optodisc = (-R)
FUJIFILM = Fuji = (-R)(+R)

3RD CLASS MEDIA
Quality can be very questionable, about 50-80% success rate:
LEADDATA, LD01, LD, LEDA = Lead Data = (-R)(-RW)
BEALL = Samsung BeAll = (-R)(+R)
MBI = Moser Beaur (India) = (-R)(+R)(+RW)
PRINCO, fake TDK = Princo = (-R)(-RW)
ONIDTECH = Unknown OEM = (-R)
MUST = Unknown OEM = (-R)
GSC001, GSC002 = Unknown OEM = (-R)(+R)

4TH CLASS MEDIA
Pathetic garbage media, landfill material, about 0-50% success rate:
RITEKG01, RITEKG02 = Ritek = (-R)
CMC, CMCMAG = CMC Magnetics = (+R)(-R)
PIODATA, PIO = LeadData, Ritek = (-R) ... once sold as "Pioneer" but that's false
Fake SONY, MXL = Fake Sony/Maxell from Hong Kong OEM (Infosmart?) = (-R)
OPTODISC = Optodisc = (+R)(+RW)
AN31, AN32, ANWELL, AN30 = Hong Kong OEM (Infosmart?) = (-R)
INFOSMART = Hong Kong OEM = (-R)(+R)
VANGUARD = Unknown OEM = (-R)
YIJHAN = Hong Kong OEM = (-R)
MATRIX = Hong Kong OEM = (-R)
VDSPMS = Unknown OEM = (-R)(+R)
LONGTEN = Hong Kong OEM = (-R)

ANYTHING ELSE = Unknown OEM or NEW
New medias to watch for: MXLRG03

Are there exceptions to this list? Sure, but not many. LD01 inkjet media and RITEKG04 inkjet media has proven to be almost flawless media for many users. But those are the only two we've seen as consistent exceptions. Use this list as a guide. This list is a "sure bets" kind of list, and is pretty reflective of the media market as a whole.

What do the % numbers mean? This list is constructed from many tests on many burners from a handful of experienced people that use a lot of media. These numbers reflect the number of discs in a spindle that will give good results. For example, out of a 100 spindle of media, 1st class discs may kick out a few bad discs (0% to 5% of the media may have playback imperfections or be outright bad burns). The 2nd class media may have a dozen or so bad discs. The 3rd class discs could give you a half-spindle of duds. And the 4th class stuff can be pure trash. These are mean averages too, simple statistics math, meaning best tests and worst tests are discarded, and the middle range of tests is the basis for these numbers. You may sometimes find the rare instance where a CMC spindle will be perfect and a Taiyo Yuden spindle will be completely flawed, but those times are the exception rather than the rule (and are not part of a mean average).

Testing procedures: Burns are subject to playability/reflectivity tests (usage tests), as well as software verification. Test equipment is under controlled hardware/software environments to eliminate user variables. Burns are at least 4GB or more to test the entire length of the media.


Branding Guide

Although this will change on a regular basis, the following brands are known to use the following media makers for their outsourced discs.

Be careful for CMC and PRINCO discs, as those are becoming more common in those "special sales" seen almost every week since early 2004. Some companies prefer dollars over quality, so be careful. Also be especially careful of "house brands" or no-names. Stores like Fry's and CompUSA have horrible return policies too, so if you end up with an unfavorable media ID, do not burn a test, just take it back for a refund and take your business elsewhere.

Accu = LEADDATA
Americal = RITEKG01, PRINCO, LEADDATA
Apple = MXL, MCC
Arita = RITEKG03, RICOHJPN
Bulkpaq = PRINCO, PRODISC
CompUSA = PRINCO, OPTODISC, LD
Datawrite = PRINCO, PRODISC, AN31, RITEKG03
DupEZ = PIODATA, LEADDATA
Esbuy = RITEK, LEADDATA, other budget IDs
Fuji = TAIYOYUDEN, MCC, RICOHJPN, PRODISC, FUJIFILM
GQ = PIODATA, PRINCO, RITEKG03, RITEKG02, LEADDATA, LD
HP = CMC, RICOHJPN, MCC
Imation = RITEKG03, CMC
KHypermedia = CMC, TTG01
LiquidVideo = OPTODISC
Matrix = MATRIX, LONGTEN, YIJHAN, MUST
Maxell = MXL, RITEK, RICOHJPN, TYG01
Memorex = CMC, RICOHJPN, PRODISC, INFODISC
Meritline = Various budget IDs
Mirror = AN31, ONIDTECH, PRINCO
Optodisc = OPTODISC
Philips = CMC
Pioneer = PVC
Princo = PRINCO, Fake TDK
Prodisc = PRODISCS03, MCC
Ritek = RITEKG01-04, RICOHJPN
Samsung = TYG01, BEALL, RITEK
Sonic, Shop4tech = LONGTEN, MATRIX, MUST, YIJHAN, various budget IDs
Sony = SONYD04, RICOHJPN, MCC
Supermedia, Linkyo = Various budget IDs
TDK = TDK, RITEKG04, RICOHJPN, MXL, CMC, MCC
Verbatim = MCC, CMC, YUDEN, RICOHJPN, RITEKG03


Why discs are "bad" or "go bad"

DVD media is still new, and methods for creating faster and better discs are always being perfected. Discs are created in an interesting manner (note that this is a basic description). Plastic is laid down, then metal reflective foil, then dyes are poured onto the foil. Another plastic is laid on top, then the disc is spun at high speed to spread out the dye, hopefully evenly. It even sounds like an unstable method!

Dye imperfections. Bad foils and dyes, as well as bad dye spread are the most common issue that causes bad media. If the dye is uneven or does not reach to the edge of the disc, it is often bad. CMC is known for bad inner-disc spread (dye thinning) and Princo is known for not reaching the edge (short spread).

User error. A common "error" with "bad media" is actually user error. Even I'm guilty of this. Do not try to use your computer extensively while burning, especially at 2x and 4x speeds. Also test your discs before dumping the source. And run several tests, as the "verification" features found in programs like Nero have been known to not properly catch errors.

Problems past the 4GB mark. Balancing is also a side effect caused by faulty plastic, foils or dye spread. A disc spins faster on the outside than it does on the inside (ask any college physics professor). And round objects tend to be most unsteady at the outside. While DVD media allows for some degree of error (data is written in a "wobble groove"), exaggerated wobble will caused the laser to spew data in areas not meant for writing. It thus disappears, and the data comes up as missing on the disc, resulting in freezing, blockiness and other odd visual errors (caused from the decoder attempting to compensate for material that is missing). Simple explanation: bad disc.

Fake media. Fake media is often bad. If you ever acquire good media like TDK, RITEK or MXL, and the results are bad, check to see if the media is legitimate. Many of these top-tier media companies only have branded discs, not plain white-top or silver-top ones. TDK, MXL, and RITEK have been spoofed before. These discs often are cheaply-made unbranded 1x media with fake 2x or 4x Media ID speeds and maker ID codes.

Gradual data loss. Also known as "disc fade" and "laser rot", this is actually not very possible due to the mechanics of DVD recordable media. Terms like "disc fade" and "laser rot" only apply to pressed media, which are altogether different from recordable media in structure and physical/chemical properties. These theories are still widely argued, and applied only to the corrosion of the metal discs. The only feasible explanation for burned media "rotting" would be a breaking of the vacuum enclosure of the disc, allowing air and moisture to permeate the metal and dye. But such chain reaction would occur fairly quickly, not at a gradual pace of months. Simple explanation: The likely reason people face "disc rot" is that they simply did not check the media when it was first burned. Or the player/reader is now dirty, and not related to the disc at all.

Dye melting from excess burn speed. Some discs simply cave in under high speed burns. Optodisc 4x DVD-R media is known to corrupt on 4x burns. Some recent April 2004 RITEKG04 media are reported as doing this too. The dye simply cannot handle the write speed. Poor production is to blame. This happens mostly on bad discs, but can also happen on good discs due to user error. Many hacked firmwares and poorly-written firmwares will allow a user to burn a disc faster than it's write strategy and media ID speed. The side-effect of these illegitimate burns is ruined dye. The dye appears discolored or otherwise unusual.

Not a media error. This is another very frequent "problem" with discs. The simple fact is not every player or DVD-ROM will read a burned DVD media. Some players were not made to play anything other than official to-spec pressed metal discs. Non-media errors may also include players that have a weak laser or a dirty laser. A non-playing disc is not a sign of a "bad" disc, but rather just means that particular player/ROM cannot play it. Run real tests to see if the disc is truly a coaster. Also be aware that some formats are more compatible than others (with DVD-R being most compatible of them all for DVD-Video content). This is often call a reflectivity error. This is not necessarily the media's fault.

Me personally? I use both DVD+R's and DVD-R's. I have a Sony DRU-710a Dual Layer burner. I recently picked up a 25-pack of Fujifilm DVD-R's from BestBuy for $8.99. Really cheap. My friend and I ended up cleaning out the store here where I live (they only had 7 cases of them).

__________________
"You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter let him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says, "Who's that?" St. Peter says, "Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane."

skaven

holy crap, bendsley, that was a phenomenal wrap-up! Did you write that yourself?

sashime76

Thanks for the lecture, Prof. Bendsley!

MikeyChalupa

Exit Mikey a wiser man. Thanks for the info!

-Mikey

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"i do not understand any of this topic to me, yet my skin is crawling on my flesh for creepy!" -- air45