The_Dunedan

The tests I posted say otherwise, rather emphatically so.

markd4life

Ok, back to the thread.....'cheap' and 'home defense' I believe were the key words. I don't think he asked how is the best way to blow somebody away. My suggestion is keep an unloaded cheap shotgun nearby. It doesn't really matter what kind it is, just as long as it looks intimidating. Don't need shells unless you are planning on shooting somebody, so forget them. Thats cheap! And you won't shoot yourself in the foot, the children won't shoot themselves, and if a home intruder gets your gun, he can't shoot you. This is MY advice, because you seem not to be too familiar with guns....

mcgeedo

markd4life offers very good advice.

If you're not experienced with guns, your best bet is to keep an unloaded prop that looks like a gun, for the reasons he mentions.

If you are experienced with guns, then you have to honestly answer the question to yourself "under what circumstances would I shoot someone." If the answer is "if they entered my home and threatened me or my family," then honestly look at that scenario. You will likely be in your living room or your bedroom when (if) it happens. Where would you and the members of your family likely be at that time. How much time would you have to get and load your weapon, and which way would you be shooting.

When I work out this scenario for myself, my best choice is an unloaded shotgun near the bed.

Another strategy you might want to consider is deterrence. An NRA bumper sticker on your car and maybe a discrete little sign on the gate to your back yard "Gun control is being able to hit what you aim at." A potential home invader might see all this and go on to your neighbor with the Obama bumper sticker, feeling he'd rather face an unarmed homeowner than an armed one.

cj2112

DO NOT " keep an unloaded cheap shotgun nearby". If the intruder is armed, you are in a much worse position than you would be w/o the unloaded shotgun. Intimidation is not a very good defense. If the intruder is in your home, it's a safe bet he understands that he may come across a pissed off resident and is prepared to deal with that.

A Mossberg or Remington (really either one is fine) pump action,short barreled, tactical shotgun and a high quality flashlight will serve you well. Go to the range and fire this gun using the same loads you will be using for home defense. Practice clearing jams, practice firing from odd angles, shoot it a couple times without hearing protection. The goal is to practice scenarios that you are likely to encounter in a home defense situation.

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"If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying--that they must sweep under the rug the southern attempts at gun control in the 1870-1910 period, the northeastern attempts in the 1920-1939 period, the attempts at both Federal and State levels in 1965-1976--establishes the repeated, complete and inevitable failure of gun laws to control serious crime." Senator Orrin Hatch, Chairman, Senate Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on the Constitution, 97th Cong., 2d Sess., The Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Committee Print I-IX, 1-23 (1982).

KirStang

Respectfully guys, to bring up the threat of deadly force, only to not be able to follow through with it, is in a word--stupid. Once the spectre of deadly force is raised, the whole scenario is escalated to one of life or death. Imagine pumping the shotgun, and the burglar/whatever then realizing his life is in danger, storms the front with a knife, fearing for his/her life. What's the shotgun good for now? A club?

Just my two cents guys. Hope I haven't offended anyone.

MSD

One inch per foot is the typical spread on birdshot through a modified choke, and while you don't have to be quite as precise as with a rifle or handgun, you still have to point it very close to center of mass to incapacitate an attacker. Buck will stay pretty much inside the same circle, but what you absolutely have to do if you plan to have a home defense gun is to take it to the range and pattern it so you know what to expect.
If you have a gun for defense, you are, for the purposes of this discussion, planning to shoot someone. If you're not going to shoot, all a gun is good for is escalating the situation and increasing your chance of being shot.
Funny that you should say that, I was thinking the same thing about you based on the recommendation above.

Dragonknight

Ok here's my .02 cents based off of your original post and the fact that you later said that you have thin walls and are not familiar with guns.

Get a shotgun.
1. It requires less aim then that of a pistol or rifle because of spread. It does not alleviate the need to aim entirely but requires less then the other type of firearms.
Since you’re not trying to become a solid marksman this is the quickest solution.
2. When shot it make a lot of noise, more noise then you’re going to get out of most other firearms. While the sound of the gun being loaded May scare your intruder, the sound of a shotgun going off Will scare the shit out of your intruder (unless of course they are a trained pro who has been in a shoot out). Also I say a shotgun will be louder then most guns because if you have a large caliber pistol or rifle that too will make a lot of noise as well and punch straight through the afore mentioned thin walls possibly hurting/killing/damaging something other then your intended target. Something you don't want to do.

Lastly you said that you are getting a firearm because of a higher rate of armed-entry robberies key note on the ARMED part of that statement, if you shoot, shoot to kill. Aim center mass or for the head with a shotgun, even with bird shot one to the head will cause enough damage to change that person’s outlook on life long enough for you to finish the job. Find out the laws in your area to know what you can and can't do as far as shooting an intruder multiple time and what instance your shooting from (i.e. the back or front) so you cover your bases. Just remember if you shoot someone I don't think they are going to think about shooting you to wound you so they can run away. They will unload the clip and leave after that. Stop them before they stop you.

Well that was more like a dollar sorry, but it's what I have for you.

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twistedmosaic

I have to disagree with almost every point of your advice here, except the deterrence one, although anyone assuming all Obama supporters are unarmed is in for an unpleasant surprise.

Under no circumstances am I going to show myself (and my toy gun) to an attacker of unknown armed status, who knowingly broke in to an occupied house. That sounds like a good way to get killed dead, and reminds me of a certain scene from Snatch. What exactly was the scenario that played out in your mind where representing an escalation to lethal force without being able to deliver was a good idea?

As for my personal scenario, as someone "experienced with guns", I currently have a 2-story house, with all bedrooms upstairs. If a glass break/door/window alarm downstairs goes off, the home defense plan is I do a quick armed recon to the top of the stairs--they turn, so I could hear but not see, and the same for anyone downstairs. While I am doing this, the wife gets the kid(s) all in the master bedroom. If I hear trouble, the wife calls the cops, while I yell down the stairs something to the effect of "Get out of my house, the cops are on the way, if you come up the stairs I will fucking kill you." I'm actually thinking about having a steel plate installed in the landing wall, so that I can have a perfectly secure perch that looks down on the stairs...having such an easily defensible choke point was one of the highlights of a 2-story floor plan in my mind. As an added bonus, since I would be shooting down on any baddies, overpenetration into the ground doesn't bother me, and I can choose rounds and weapons for effectiveness (also at the moment, there is just a dirt lot in front of my house.)

Castle doctrine not withstanding, I would question the sanity of anyone who would leave a defensible choke point between badguys and family, and try to sweep their house like a one-man SWAT team, just so someone doesn't make off with their TV. If I lived alone, maybe, but the fact that one wrong move would leave my family undefended keeps me on strict defense.

Now, if someone is willing to break in while we are visibly downstairs in the living room, well...that is more trouble than I am willing to stay prepared for on a day-to-day basis. I solved this problem by moving to a classy neighborhood--home assaults of that nature are few and far between in the master planned communities of Gilbert. YMMV.

eXpired

A bit off-topic, but:
Excuse me if I'm wrong (as I don't have a clue about shotguns), but can't you just find some rock salt shells and use those instead? Hurts the intruder like hell too, but doesn't kill him/her.

Another alternative is rubber slugs or as I read on Wikipedia:
Although I suspect that last one is expensive.

<expects a "you're a noob" aimed towards me comment>

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markd4life

I believe the original question asked about the best shotgun for HOME SAFETY. SAFETY.
Not killing somebody. If some of you think its SAFE to leave a loaded shotgun around, then more power to ya. I am quite familiar with my shotgun, and I NEVER leave it loaded in my home. I don't know the guy that started this thread, hell he could be Rambo for all I know...but when someone asks me about the best shotgun for HOME SAFETY, ...I will always tell him the safest shotgun, is none at all......but if you must, do not leave it loaded! EVER! Firearm Safety 101, take a course.

Crompsin

Draconis:

I'd recommend you look at the Mossberg 500/590, Remington 970, or Winchester 1300. All represent top drawer combat shotguns. The Mossberg is used by the military and features chunky internals that stand up to all sorts of abuse. The Remington has been made popular by police departments and is extremely common. The Winchester 1300 utilizes a fire-assisted pump mechanism with a rotating bolt. It’s very fast and has been compared to autoloaders.

All three brand names above are ubiquitous and their accessories are endless. I recommend getting a simple scope-ring style mount and attaching a bright flashlight to your choice.

Mossberg 590:



Remington 870:



Anormalguy:

A shoulder arm is more stable than a handgun as it utilizes three points of contact on the body when in the ready position (2 flexing points in the hands and 1 solid point in the shoulder pocket) and makes for better retention (two hands as well as cross-body orientation plus any carrying sling) and is easier to control during a hand-to-hand scuffle where it may be part of a grabbing game due to the longer barrel and stock. Basically, it’s harder for it to be taken away and used against you in a potential nocturnal wrestling match. A handgun is lightweight and compact and the short sight radius means the muzzle can easily go from the bad guy to you with minimal effort.

Handguns have their place. Many educated people can argue over their application in home defense. I recommend a compact shoulder arm over a handgun unless you live in a Porta-Potty or already own a handgun and don’t desire to own a long gun.

The old adage goes: A handgun is what you use when you’re trying to get to your long gun.

You also typically get “more gun” for the dollar with a long gun than a hand gun. A 18” Remington 870 can be hand for $400. A used Glock 17 can be had for about the same.

Willravel:

I would not recommend an autoloading shotgun for home defense to someone who is new to firearms. Autoloaders are difficult to manipulate when stressed out and clearing a jam is the last thing a home owner needs to do when confronted with a one-in-a-million home invasion scenario. A slide-action shotgun allows the user to manipulate the entire feed/fire process.

Also: don’t discount the utility of a double-barreled shotgun. A side-by-side (SxS) “stage coach” cowboy-style shotgun is a viable tool for home defense provided one practices with it. A SxS that features dual triggers is useful as it allows a properly trained user the choice to deploy one of two different types of ammunition instantly such as a less-lethal bean bag / buckshot, or a buckshot / slug combination. A slide action shotgun would require the user to cycle the next round into the chamber or use a load unsuitable for the target. It is impossible to jam a break-open shotgun as it has no feed-related moving parts. SxS coach guns are noticeably shorter than pump action guns that feature a similar barrel length. SxS guns are also extremely durable and often make better clubs than other types of long arms should such a tactic need to be employed. But what about capacity, you say? Well, if you need more than two rounds at a time… you need to move. I own a Stoeger SxS coach gun and have trained with it, I would be confident in my ability to defend myself with it during an “oh-shit” situation. Sometimes simple is better.

WTF? I didn’t just read that. Nobody outside of the military responds to the sound of weapon actuation noise by opening fire. Home defense is home defense… not home offense. You can’t open fire unless you are faced with a situation that is a direct and imminent threat to your life or the lives of your family. That means a physical confrontation and close proximity, typically under 21 feet by most experts. Responding to an unknown noise with undirected gunfire is reckless at best. This takes place in your own home, remember? Easy there, Tex.

Your philosophy here is why I would be nervous if you purchased a firearm. Discretion… it IS the better part of valor.

Cynthetiq is correct. You may want to put some money towards training at Front Site.

TwistedMosaic:

The intimidation factor of the pump action 12 gauge is very real. The simplicity of the gun is a major boon to the user in confidence and the racking noise informs any “unfriendlies” close enough to hear it that they are in serious trouble.

Jinn:

Pfft… it’s okay for Will to post whatever he wants… admins still let me post in Tilted Politics sometimes.

Markd4life:

Firearm safety rule #1: Every gun is loaded at all times.
Home defense rule #1: An empty guy is an expensive club.
Look at it this way: Your car is only dangerous if you put gasoline in it (so it can drive). A firearm is only dangerous when you put ammunition in it (so it can shoot). Consider the purpose of the two: the car is designed to drive in order to get you to your destination, the gun is designed to shoot in order to kill your target.

If you don't want to shoot somebody... go buy a baseball bat. Don't buy a gun.

Your opinions are noted. I note them as bad policy.

…

MSD is right about the ammo choice. Buckshot is for humans. Don’t use anything less than #4… I prefer 00 but 000 is popular in some circles. You can also use less-lethal ammunition such as the ball, buckshot, and beanbag loads produced by Sellier & Bellot.

As stated above… a flashlight is your primary weapon during a home defense situation. You can’t shoot at a target you can’t see. You need identify your target as a bad guy.

KirStang is correct about the threat of deadly force.

…

For the record... reading this thread makes me want to cry.

...
-----Added 16/10/2008 at 09 : 18 : 02-----
Urban legend. Rock salt shells are produced by hill billies with reloading benches and are not placed on gun shop shelves.

Professional less-lethal shotgun shells are popular with law enforcement and are easily purchased.
-----Added 16/10/2008 at 09 : 20 : 19-----
+1
-----Added 16/10/2008 at 09 : 34 : 02-----

RE: 1. Shotgun spread should not be an issue for home defense. You are aiming center mass on your target because they are close enough to represent a lethal threat to you. Tactically speaking, a shotgun does not have spread because it is not a support fire weapon such as a machine gun, which would be mounted on a tripod and waved left and right to create such an effect. Tactically, a shotgun fires a single projectile. In combat situations, a shotgun shell is designed to increase damage to a target area, not to hit multiple targets or to improve chances of hitting a target in compensation for crappy aim (especially at the ranges we're discussing in this thread on home defense). Instead of the through-and-through poke of a pistol or rifle bullet, a shotgun is like a heavy slap.

RE: 2. Why are they going to hear the gun fire more than once if they are a single intruder? Warning shots are a bad idea. Shooting at something you can't hit is a worse idea. Firing at an intruder is the absolute last resort in a home defense situation.

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Anormalguy

Crompsin, thank you for your detailed post. The overall length of my .30-.30 is very close to the overall length of a shotgun with a 18.5" barrel (regular stock, not handgrip), but I would be much more comfortable using one of my hanguns. As for having a gun taken away, yes, that is a real possibility in some scenarios, but as I tell my wife, "If somebody gets close enough to grab the pistol, you waited too long to start shooting." If you're wrestling with an intruder over your firearm, you're already in deep shit, be it a handgun or a long gun.

BTW I live in a house, not a Porta Potty.

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markd4life

"If you don't want to shoot somebody...go buy a baseball bat. Don't buy a gun."

Yes Crompsin, I guess that is the point I have been advocating. I hate to see people unfamiliar with firearms preparing for assault. Nice post, although my shotgun will remain unloaded!

Stare At The Sun

Use what you are comfortable with.

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PonyPotato

I don't believe that Crompsin said that all guns should be loaded at all times.. rather, safety rule number one is that they should be TREATED as being loaded at all times. For the record, he keeps the shotgun(s) unloaded as well.

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Formerly known as merleniau.

Crompsin

Winchester 94? Good gun, but I wouldn't want to use a .30-30 for home defense where I live due to the "out the window" factor.

As you tell your wife, you're not Chuck Norris... most altercations between humans are very intimate (read: close range). Unless you have a good alarm system and sleep like a ninja, you will be startled and the bad guy will be startled by the time you realize exactly where each of you are and how very close. At those ranges... hand gun or long gun... you had better be in a decent firing posture.

This is assuming the bad guy isn't smart enough to retreat and that you're not smart enough to turn on the lights in your house and and be carrying a 60+ lumen flashlight for those areas that need a little illumination.

People talk about home defense like it's some kind of game show. It's YOUR house. No rules and no video-game-action-movie hero tactical-wizard bullshit. Call the cops, get the weapon, turn on the lights, move with a purpose, and secure your family.

As you tell your wife, 1. Security, 2. Accountability, 3. Communication.

__________________
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All your base are belong to us.

Bill O'Rights

When I served on an EST team, we used the Remington 870.

If space, or manuverability, is a concern, get the folding stock option.

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Anormalguy

I agree wholeheartedly. One factor that most people don't anticipate is fear. I don't speak from experience, but I would imagine that for most people (certainly not everyone) knowing that an intruder is in ones house would cause a racing pulse & perhaps even a feeling of near panic. Whatever ones choice of weapon, a pre-planned course of action & clear thinking are key to surviving an instrusion.

Obviously there are situations where a person could be surprised, even if they have prepared. I know folks who have handguns hidden in strategic locations, but that's not necessarily workable for those with curious children.

An irony: The guns that make us feel secure when we're at home are also one of the things that attracts burglars.

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Crompsin

Dood, your pictures are more epic than Sarah Palin's stupidity. Tarp-sized.

__________________
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All your base are belong to us.

markd4life

You speaking for Crompson? The same guy who said an unloaded gun is an expensive club?

Dragonknight

1. By spread I mean the spread of the shot on impact with the target, may be using spray would have been clearer? Either way even at a distance of 5-10 feet your impact area will be larger then that of any pistol or rifle other then a deagle or .50 cal. The added force you’ll get from hitting some one with a shotgun vice a pistol (again other then larger rounds) will be sufficient enough to stop your target without punching through a wall. The spread or spr