runtuff

Any one have any experience using, owning, buying?? I'm looking at one for a Glock.

Slims

I have used them on my work-gun. If you have the option I am far more fond of any brand of tritium night sights.

Laser sights are excellent backups, especially in very small pistols where it is very difficult to acquire a sight picture. This is especially true if you have poor eyesight they can be invaluable as you can focus on a single plane.

However, they have a few drawbacks:

1. Shooting from an improper stance: People tend to develop very bad habits when using laser sights....they stop bringing their weapon up into a proper shooting position and adopt sloppy techniques. Shooters then keep those bad habits when they shoot during daytime conditions where a laser sight is useless. Also, shooters cannot shoot as fast when they are waiting to reacquire a laser dot which bounces all over the target following a shot, traditional techniques of reacquiring a flash sight picture...or no sight picture for double taps just don't carry over well to using a laser sight. If you notice the crimson trace commercials the person shooting (a professional shooter) is looking through his sights and the laser just happens to be on...he doesn't appear to be using it at all because it would only slow him down.

2. Searching: People often get in the habit of simply moving the red-dot onto the target vs. using the sights with the laser as a backup. The problem with this is that if the person doesn't have a wall or a surface behind the target where the laser dot will be easily visible you often won't know which direction to move in order to get on target and will 'search' around with your pistol until you can see the dot, wasting a lot of time. This is especially true in dim but not dark situations.

3. Dead Batteries: I have several times pulled my weapon out only to find the batteries were dead. I am not sure whether there was some sort of slow battery drain or whether I was somehow triggering the sight while my weapon was holstered, but the result was the same...the sight I expected to have wasn't working.

4. Fragility: I have had two different crimson trace grips on my work-gun and I broke both of them.

5. Lasers are a two-way beam of light: You become more visible and poor laser discipline (light discipline is something that has to be learned and practiced or you wills screw it up in an emergency) can telegraph your intentions and location to an intruder, allowing them to prepare and maneuver effectively against you.



My personal preference is for Novak Lo-Mount Night Sights. It is a matter of personal preference, but they have never let me down. They work for at least 12 years, are very fast, don't rely on batteries, don't 'wash out' if a flashlight is used or it is daylight. My shooting techniques remain exactly the same regardless of the light conditions (with the exception of a white light), they are very durable and IMHO the Novak's are a better sight even for daylight hours than the plastic thingy which comes stock on the Glock.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

therealcat

The word you're looking for is "sights." Trust me: I was an English major.

Laser sights can intimidate criminals, providing they're capable of a degree of rationality; they're not, however, a substitute for learning how to shoot accurately.

Here's a clue: most people in most self-defense situations don't have time to use sights. It's conceivable laser sights could help in low light confrontations and darkness, but that's only if there's time to use them.

My best recommendation: spend the money you were thinking about spending on laser sights on practice ammunition and range fees.

Slims

No, most people in self-defense situations have plenty of time to use sights (the rest of their lives in fact, if you want to use the cliche), but instead they choose to shoot blindly and waste a lot of time by missing...quickly. Just look at Police Officers who are, unfortunately better trained than your average civilian. Most police confrontations happen very close (less than 10 feet) yet the police officers only hit their intended targets about 1 out of every 5 shots fired. The rest of those rounds are wasted, time consuming, irresponsible rounds fired towards.....nobody knows but it usually isn't a safe backstop. If they panicked less, acquired a quick sight picture and obtained reliable center-mass hits they would shoot slower, but hit faster.

My point in my above post was that in a fast-breaking situation laser sights are not particularly fast...you have to 'search' for the dot rather than acquiring a fast, basic gun-target line before firing and continue to search for the sight after each shot. Having to 'see' the dot encourages you to stick your neck up and to stand more erect, looking at least several inches over the top of your weapon because the dot can easily be hidden if your hand/gun obstructs your view. If you don't have time to acquire a basic sight-alignment you certainly don't have time to go searching for a red dot and then 'dragging' it onto the target and then trying to hold it still while you manipulate the trigger.

Also, if the firearm to which the laser sight is attached isn't intimidating enough, a little red-dot is probably not going to scare the criminal either.


I don't want this to sound like a condemnation of laser sights....they have a niche which they fill very well, but IMHO they are a poor solution to a nonexistent problem in most cases.

Edit: I agree with TheRealCat's advice to spend the money at the range practicing...familiarity with your weapon is absolutely crucial. If you already shoot it frequently then you may be right to look at low-light enhancements. FWIW I took my wife to the range the other day because I was not confident she was still familiar with her defensive pistol. I loaded it, put it in the same condition she carries/maintains it and handed it to her. Sure enough she tried to shoot it without taking the safety off and then looked at it trying to figure out what was wrong. My lesson learned was that confidence won't put rounds on target, you have to train or all the gizmos in the world won't help you.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

It's my opinion that the money spent on a laser is money that should have been spent on training ammo and tritiums.

Handgun lasers are trinkets.

__________________
"The days go on and on... they don't end. All my life needed was a sense of someplace to go. I don't believe that one should devote his life to morbid self-attention, I believe that one should become a person like other people."

Formerly username "Crompsin."

runtuff

Hey thanks, for the info. Much to think about and investigate.

Slims

Cromp: Does the Ares fire from an open bolt? None of their literature says either way. It looks very interesting, provided it is open bolt and we can throw a muzzle break/compensator to get rid of what is probably a lot of muzzle rise.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

dissonance

The military has been using Crimson Trace laser grips on their M-9s. Provided you know how to shoot already, the laser can give you quite an advantage.

I've heard nothing but good about the company if you ever do have a problem.

Plan9

...and the military also uses shitty fragile aluminum GI mags with tilt-o-matic followers.

What does that tell you?

We can pay for gizmos, but we forget the basics.

We have Velcro on our uniforms. Don't laugh too hard.

...

Slims: Totally cross-threaded here. That's awesome.

Bolt? Honestly, I'm not sure. Judging from the disassembly pictures, I'd have to guess open bolt... it uses that fat proprietary AR15 many-lug but the mash-up looks way similar to the M249. I could be wrong and they could have doo-doo'd themselves with a closed bolt. Open bolt would be the only thing that makes sense on a full auto belt fed AR.

It sure is gnarly, though.

__________________
"The days go on and on... they don't end. All my life needed was a sense of someplace to go. I don't believe that one should devote his life to morbid self-attention, I believe that one should become a person like other people."

Formerly username "Crompsin."

Walt

They're used more for crowd control than actual shooting. From what I'm told, if one puts a red dot on hadji, he tends to back away from your truck and conduct himself in a more rational manner.

Slims nailed it when pointing out the pro's and con's of laser sights. Besides, Crimson Trace grips run around $230 for a Glock. Why settle for looking cool when you could invest in products to make your weapon more efficient/effective?

A set of Novak's, a grip plug, extended slide release and 3.5 lbs trigger connector will vastly improve the performance of your Glock, while only setting you back $180.


MidwayUSA - Novak Front Sight Glock .158" Height .134" Width Steel Blue Tritium
MidwayUSA - Novak Carry Rear Sight Glock Steel Blue Tritium
MidwayUSA - Glock Slide Stop Lever with Spring 17, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 (3 pin model) Extended Steel Blue
MidwayUSA - Lone Wolf Grip Plug Glock 17, 19, 22, 24, 31, 32, 34, 35, 37, 38 Polymer Black
Ghost Inc. 3.5 lb. Trigger CONNECTOR for GLOCKS

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

It doesnt really matter if you make mission so long as you look cool.

__________________
"Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is, I'm not. I honestly just feel that America is the best country and all the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism." - Kenny Powers

Calmer than you are.

Plan9

Looking cool IS important. Crucial.

Take college discussions for example.

__________________
"The days go on and on... they don't end. All my life needed was a sense of someplace to go. I don't believe that one should devote his life to morbid self-attention, I believe that one should become a person like other people."

Formerly username "Crompsin."

raptor9k

I'll stick with the tritium night sights for the actual aiming, but I could see how crowd control could be handy with the laser. I've gotten to where my weapon is generally level and pointed center mass on instinct without the sights, so unless I'm taking a 20+ yard shot I should be very damn close to where I want to be.

Has anyone looked into some of the fast acquisition techniques like rapid front sight acquisition or point shooting? I'm curious what the best methodology is these days in a real world application. I really need to take some defensive pistol and shotgun classes.

purplelirpa

I have a crimson trace grip on my s&w snubnose revolver and my cats simply love it! Cause we all need another reason to point our guns at our cats.

It's funny, I actually opted to have this because of the way the grip felt in my hand--not because of the laser. I wouldn't get laser sights. Glocks have great sights, anyway. Which model?

Plan9

The Crimson Trace laser grip for the J-frame is almost the same as the stock boot grip.

This is assuming you got a newer S&W, not a old wood-handled '70s throwback.

...

I use my Glock's M6X as a cat toy, myself. My fiesty panther loves the hell outta that dot. He actually meows when I switch it on.

...

Stock Glock pistol sights aren't super-amazing, but aftermarket sights make it just as good as anything else.

I recommend any defensive handgun be topped with tritium. Non-illuminated pistol sights are useless at dusk.

__________________
"The days go on and on... they don't end. All my life needed was a sense of someplace to go. I don't believe that one should devote his life to morbid self-attention, I believe that one should become a person like other people."

Formerly username "Crompsin."

UnclearContent

Really? My J-frame snub has a very small grip.

*prepares himself for penis jokes*

purplelirpa

Odd, I noticed a big difference between with the crimson grip and without. I have tiny hands, though. I feel more of a measure of control of that bucking bitch--leaving my hand less bruised and battered when I have more to grab onto.

Completely off topic, now. I have a glock as well, and I've found firing it to be much more pleasant of an experience. Not just because the recoil is less, but also because he angle of the grip makes the back of it rest just right against the thumb webbing every time.

I would like to get some tritium on the sights. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who uses their gun laser on the cats.

Plan9

For fuck's sake... can a mod fix this thread's title, please?

"Crimson Trace Laser Sights?" would be appreciated.

__________________
"The days go on and on... they don't end. All my life needed was a sense of someplace to go. I don't believe that one should devote his life to morbid self-attention, I believe that one should become a person like other people."

Formerly username "Crompsin."

fungi020

I have a set on my 357 and like it. Not sure if I will ever use it and have the feature turned off but next time i walk outside at night when the skunk is waiting for me outside my door I may turn it on before hand. lol

KirStang

I like CTC sights for a couple of reasons.

1.) Allow aiming without needing to raise sights to eye level. This is particularly useful imo if you're injured or unable to get an ideal sight picture. You can basically aim the pistol from any position, freeing up the rest of your head/body to hide behind cover, etc.

2.) Faster than irons, particularly during a string of fire. I don't know if this is because I haven't trained enough with my pistol, or recieved the right training, but accurately double tapping multiple targets is far faster for me with CTC grips. Pistol sights tend to bounce around when moving and/or shooting, so using a laser dot as a guide instead, works well for me.

Couple of drawbacks though
- Parallax. Laser is only dead on at the distance u zero it to. Shoots high right/low left (IIRC) at distances beyond/within point of zero.

- Gives opponent nice red dot to shoot.

- May discourage proper stance and grip--key to fast follow up shots.

Over all, I like mine. But, after all, it may be because I spent the money on one, so I could be biased.

Cimarron29414

One thing to consider, laser sights allow the person who takes your gun to shoot as well as you. Nothing beats training and repetition.

__________________
I know I left it around here somewhere!?

Slims

Sorry, but if your plan includes having your gun taken away you are doing it wrong.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Belligerentkj

Raptor9k, to answer your question check out a company by the name of Front Sight I think you will like what you find. If not then check out Tactical Response. Both will help you to develop as a shooter. Good luck...